10KW LENR Demonstrator?

[Giorgio]

@Kahuna

Prof. Campari and Prof. Villa are probably the one who will determine the experimental procedures to be used. From what I am reading they are both extremely good and experienced researchers.
I already found a common friend and I will ask him to check if they will be directly involved in the research or just supervising it.

Will post more info when/if I will have.

Prof. Campari CV:
http://www.unibo.it/SitoWebDocente/defa ... rol1=TabCV

Prof. Villa CV:
http://www.unibo.it/SitoWebDocente/defa ... rol1=TabCV

[rcain]

...
So, they make metal hydride, propagate through that high current and execute nuclear reaction. If that feasible even my grandmother can prove that with 300USD budget and existence of some laboratory facilities.

ROFL! better get her straight on the job then.

Aside joke but it very easy to prove that phenomenon.
I am sure that impossible to execute nuclear in that conditions. Who believe let's prove. That would not be expensive.
Then I will trust too.
Thanks.

i agree. that is why on balance, i am actually a little more excited by this field, than i am skeptical: it is (potentially) very accessible to both experiment and theory, and there are many research groups confidently claiming 'similar' findings around a (largely) common theme.

it will be interesting at least to compare notes in say 1 years time... and some will say 'i told you so' whilst others will be quite embarrassed. the sensible thing to do is sit on the fence until there are more facts .... (and of course speculate...)

[KitemanSA]

No amount of journal discrediting will hide an effect that is simple to demonstrate.

And if it is NOT simple to demonstrate but none the less real? The Greek Leucippus and his student Democritus hypothesized "atoms" millenia before they were finally seem by SEMs. Did atoms not exist in those millenia just becasue they were not "simple to demonstrate"? Indeed the more famous Plato and Aristotle both denyed the existance of atoms. Seems their proclaimations carried the day for thousands of years. Not a good precident for the proclaimations of the famous.

I'd say that at the present time there is more than enough effort going into something that even if it works as claimed is basically just a water heater.

And this seems to be the primary argument by the naysayers. They are constantly being shown wrong by LENR researchers so they fall back on snide comments of "lack of usefulness". You seem to be parroting the arguments of the DoE study naysayers. Not very useful then, not very useful now.

And the fact that it took very little effort to unbottle Polywell - even against the best opposition the big fusion guys could bring to bear - shows that your feared opposition is a paper tiger.

You mean opposition to the work of one of the emminent names in hot fusion of his day? The guy that started the feeding trough for the tok folk? You think they tried at ALL to suppress? Ignore, maybe. Publish falsified papers, NBL. Oh, and by the by, were any of his papers ever refused by Physics Journals? Which ones?

You may be unaware of this but we have the Internet these days and if you really have something no one can stop you.

True, and it should be obvious to anyone with more than two brain cells to fire together that LENR isn't stopped. Indeed, the SECOND most common snide remark is that they have to fall back on the use of the internet. Some of you fellow naysayers maintain that internet publication doesn't count. Then those like you say "if it were real, it couldn't be stopped becasue there is an internet". Circular argument! Is internet publication acceptable or not?

I suspect that the truth will out eventually. I also suspect that it will be suppressed for as long as possible by those who feed at the g'ment trough to protect their position at said feeding trough. The reason is not that they think it FALSE, there would be no need to suppress the false physics. They would support detailed work on these process to demonstrate they DON'T work. No, they suppress any effert to investigate becasue they fear that LENR are real, and dangerous to their position at the trough.

[Kahuna]

@Kahuna

Prof. Campari and Prof. Villa are probably the one who will determine the experimental procedures to be used. From what I am reading they are both extremely good and experienced researchers.
I already found a common friend and I will ask him to check if they will be directly involved in the research or just supervising it.

Will post more info when/if I will have.

Prof. Campari CV:
http://www.unibo.it/SitoWebDocente/defa ... rol1=TabCV

Prof. Villa CV:
http://www.unibo.it/SitoWebDocente/defa ... rol1=TabCV

Thanks G, I don't know the reputations of Italian schools, but these guys appear to be well qualified for the task. Its also very nice that you have a contact inside who might be able to get some better information on the plans and timing.

This bolsters my theory that the Rossi/E-Cat are either real or a product self-delusion. What self respecting scammer would turn a team like this loose on the oject of his deception.

Whatever it is, it is fun to watch unfold.

NOTE: FWIW Parallel, my take is that most all of the participants here seem to have evolved the thread into an interesting discussion based on what is currently knowable and that the mindless rock throwing and scam presumptions really ended some 30 pages ago. The thread has a healthy mix of the open-minded, yet appropriately skeptical with intellegence and multi-disciplinary experience participants which makes this one of the best discussions of Rossi/E-Cat I have found. Just sayin...

[KitemanSA]

- in much the same state as the rest of fusion science then, including our beloved Polywell.

It is my understanding that no one has DEMONSTRATED a net power hot fusion device.
Net power LENR (for want of a better name) has been demoed for over 20 years - well that is the claim.

Oh? Until Rossi, who ever made that claim? If "excess heat" means net power, then every fusion device ever has made "excess heat". So sauce fo r the goose, sauce for the gander. So far, AFAIK, only Rossi has claimed USEFUL excess heat; excess heat substantially above input energy.

Sort of like the first prototype transister!

You know, it would be MUCH more productive of everyone's time if you would turn your intellect toward useful pursuits, like how would you specifically test a LENR device?

[parallel]

Giorgio wrote:

This is why I find strange that he also states that the e-cat is not suited for power generation.

I don't believe he ever said that. Reference?

I've always liked E.M.Smith (Chiefio) and think this was a fun thought experiment.
See The Smith Cell – LENR here http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/06/06 ... cell-lenr/

[KitemanSA]

You have missed something. Rossi said that 100C steam was not much good for generating electricity. I think this was in response to the idea of using a Stirling engine. Elsewhere, has has stated the upper limit would be 550C and quite high pressure ( I don't want to quote the number from memory.) This would enable electricity generation at low cost.

He has also recently updated his E-Cat schedule to say the 1 MW plant will be demonstrated in the last week of October.

Ok, I missed something. I stand corrected? If it can produce significant heat at 550C then maybe it is a panacea!

[Giorgio]

Giorgio wrote:

This is why I find strange that he also states that the e-cat is not suited for power generation.

I don't believe he ever said that. Reference?

Why should I even waste the time to look for them and give them to you?
You won't read them anyhow as you are not reading the exchange of posts between me and Kiteman, otherwise you would not have made to me this question in the start.

[Giorgio]

If it can produce significant heat at 550C then maybe it is a panacea!

So, don't you find strange now that he is not looking into power generation?

[rcain]

@Kahuna

Prof. Campari and Prof. Villa are probably the one who will determine the experimental procedures to be used. From what I am reading they are both extremely good and experienced researchers.
I already found a common friend and I will ask him to check if they will be directly involved in the research or just supervising it.

Will post more info when/if I will have.

Prof. Campari CV:
http://www.unibo.it/SitoWebDocente/defa ... rol1=TabCV

Prof. Villa CV:
http://www.unibo.it/SitoWebDocente/defa ... rol1=TabCV

i would be very interested to know their precise 'brief' and 'scope' - the machine-translation of http://www.socialnews.it/ARTICOLI2011/A ... sione.html suggests it could be very wide - possibly even some 'exclusivity' in publication of future research around the device. that in itself could be very lucrative and high profile. probably much more interesting also.

[parallel]

KitemanSA wrote:

Ok, I missed something. I stand corrected?

Rossi stated the max pressure at 50 bars. Why the question mark?

More background for those like Giorgio who are careless with the facts:

Andrea Rossi
April 7th, 2011 at 7:58 PM
We cannot overcome the limit of 550 C degrees for technological reasons. But we are very advanced in the application of an electric power generator. Very advanced. We are close to the solution.


"Denis" asked April 12th, 2011 at 3:29 PM :
Same question about the Patent. What is the forecast for the Lead-Time of the acceptation of the Patent? At that point will be possible for the rest of the world “to see inside” the Catalyzer?

Rossi replied:
a patent like this can request up to 6 years of processing

Andrea Rossi
May 3rd, 2011 at 10:16 AM
Dear Mr Toker:
We produce heat, with heat you can make also electric power.

Andrea Rossi
May 30th, 2011 at 7:57 PM
Dear Mr Neil Ferguson:
No, the design of the reactor is specific if we have to make steam, or if we have to make hot water or just low temp heated water.
In any case we can reach stability.

[parallel]

Giorgio wrote:

Prof. Campari and Prof. Villa are probably the one who will determine the experimental procedures to be used. From what I am reading they are both extremely good and experienced researchers.
I already found a common friend and I will ask him to check if they will be directly involved in the research or just supervising it.

Should I assume that their report will be worth nothing, like Rowan U.'s, because they are being paid to do the work?

I note none of the self-appointed patent experts have answered my question about Pilkington's patent for float glass.

[Giorgio]

More background for those like Giorgio who are careless with the facts:

Let's try again:

Makes total sense to me if the temperature of the steam is limited to about 100° C. He said the efficiency would be about 5% which is what you would get with that input and typical output temps and typical mechanical conversion efficiencies. I didn't say he said it wouldn't work, just that it wasn't very good for it. COULD you do it? Sure. Would it be worth it? Not so sure.

He stated several times in the replies on his website that the e-Cats can be connected in serial and parallel to increase temperature and pressure.
This is why I find strange that he also states that the e-cat is not suited for power generation.

Kiteman is stating something that I think is not correct and you ask ME to find the source for Kiteman statement? A statement that I didn't agree with since the start? And you even get nervous when I point to you this fact?
Really, you have either big comprehension issues or English is definitely not your primary language.

Take a deep breath, relax and try reading the posts and follow the discussion that is going on before posting. It can help you.

[Giorgio]

Giorgio wrote:

Prof. Campari and Prof. Villa are probably the one who will determine the experimental procedures to be used. From what I am reading they are both extremely good and experienced researchers.
I already found a common friend and I will ask him to check if they will be directly involved in the research or just supervising it.

Should I assume that their report will be worth nothing, like Rowan U.'s, because they are being paid to do the work?

With this post I think is now a proven fact that you do not understand English.
Try researching on the web for the meaning of "extremely good" and "experienced researchers".

[Joseph Chikva]

and some will say 'i told you so' whilst others will be quite embarrassed.

There will be so many people who knew and know till now that for execution nuclear fusion the temperature of millions C - not 500 is required that it would not be a big shame to stay with them.
I am declaring once again - today I prefer to be there. All the more offered here theory attempting to explain phenomenon does not seem reliable.