10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[sparkyy0007]

Interesting topic developing.

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@es ... 52529.html

[Luzr]

At 19:25 the H2 was allowed to escape and the cooling water rate increased.

And those are these little details that always spoil the thing... Why was water rate increased? And why it took so darn long to cool down after increasing water rate?

It would be much more convincing if hydrogen was depresurized and temperature would drop, with the same water rate. Always adding more variables and more dependencies seems like trying to fugde something.

[Giorgio]

Interesting topic developing.

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@es ... 52529.html

That's one of the reasons for which I was insisting that you needed a big dT to make this type of test plausible.

[sparkyy0007]

Interesting topic developing.

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@es ... 52529.html

That's one of the reasons for which I was insisting that you needed a big dT to make this type of test plausible.

Very true.
I just though of something else possibly confounding the Tin Tout readings.
It looks like they used two non isolated k thermocouples against the bare metal, feeding the same hand held instrument. See the problem?

[CherryPick]

The equations ruling this 6.10 demo are simple. The energy released from the storage, the eCat, is output energy minus input energy. The output energy is measured by the water flow and temperature difference between the input and output flow of water. Accuracy is not very relevant because the goal is just to show that eCat releases a lot of energy.

Measurement of the input power simply by measuring the current and knowing the AC voltage does not make significant errors.

Measuring the output power relies on measuring the amount of water and the temperatures. It was water that was used - wasn't it ? Calibration of the pump and the flow meter could have be checked by measuring the total mass of the (output) water. It is much more visible that way.

Measuring the temperatures relies on the calibration of the thermocouples and on making sure that the temperatures of the water are actually measured. At least I would like to hear a report of the (visual) inspection of that. I prefer large dT.

COP 2 to 3 is not news. The claim of new nuclear reactions is based on the energy density of the device. So the report of the disassembly to the eCat is essential. Did they measure radiation?

Only independent validations can out-rule the possibility of a scam.

[Giorgio]

Very true.
I just though of something else possibly confounding the Tin Tout readings.
It looks like they used two non isolated k thermocouples against the bare metal, feeding the same hand held instrument. See the problem?

Somehow all of these issues do not surprise me anymore....

[TallDave]

It shows very clearly x3 out/in ratio.

And remember, this is even ignoring all the heat lost.

If the measurements are even marginally accurate then either Rossi has a hidden microwave transmitter in the floor or his magic box is making heat somehow.

Obviously multiple independent replications would be the best proof, but just as obviously Rossi not going to give away his magic box. He seems to view proving this out to the legions of skeptics as something less than his highest priority.

I'll be interested to see if any further tests develop before the commercial operations commence. Probably wouldn't hurt for skeptics to draw up some very detailed testing proposals that would eliminate any possibility of error/chicanery, something where they can say "if it passes THIS test, I will believe he has something." Maybe Rossi will deign to do another at some point, esp. if the commercial attempt goes badly.

[TDPerk]

I suggest they should use RTDs connected in Kelvin. Out of box precision and accuracy is far better.

[Tech]

Andrea Rossi

October 9th, 2011 at 2:26 AM



David Roberson,

Good question, and opportune indeed.

NOT ONLY I CONFIRM THAT I VERIFIED THAT THE WATER TEMPERATURE IN THE EXHAUST STREAM UNDER OPERATING CONDITIONS HAS BEEN MEASURED AND MATCHES THE READING SEEN ON THE TEST THERMOCOUPLES, BUT EVERYBODY CAN EASILY CHECK IT EVERYWHERE WITH FEW DOLLARS , WITHOUT ANY RISK: IN THE REPORT MADE BY NYTEKNIK THERE ARE THE PHOTOS OF THE CONNECTORS WHERE WE PUT THE THERMOCOUPLE; JUST GO IN ANY SHOP FOR PLUMBERS AND BUY THE SAME ARTICLE ( IT COSTS LESS THAN 10 $). ONCE YOU GOT IT, GO IN YOUR BATHROOM , CONNECT THE TOY WITH RUBBER HOSES ( ANY RUBBER HOSE) AND MAKE HOT WATER FLOW IN ONE ROW, AND COLD WATER FLOW IN THE OTHER, PUT AT THE OPPOSITE SIDE. ONCE YOU DID THIS, TAKE A THERMOMETER AND MEASURE THE TEMPERATURE IN THE EXACT PLACE WHERE WE PUT THE THERMOCOUPLE, THEN MEASURE THE TEMPERATURE AT A DISTANCE OF A COUPLE OF INCHES AFTER SUCH POSITION, ALONG THE WATER FLOW. IF YOU FIND ANY DIFFERENCE, LET ME KNOW: I NEVER DID . OF COURSE, THE MORE DISTANT YOU GO, THE MORE THE TEMPERATURE DECREASES, SO IT IS LOGIC THAT TO MEASURE THE POWER WE HAVE TO STAY IN PROXIMITY OF THE WATER FLOW EXIT.

I WANT TO ADD THAT, TO ANSWER TO THE FRAUDOLENT STATEMENTS MADE FROM THE SNAKES PAID BY THE USUAL WELL KNOWN TO DISCREDIT AND BLACKMAIL US (YES, I REPEAT: BLACKMAIL US):

1- THE CALCULATION OF ENERGY MADE BY THE SNAKES ARE EMBARASSINGLY WRONG, JUST ANALYZE THE RATIO BETWEEN THE ENERGY INPUT AND THE ENERGY OUTPUT IN THE PUBLISHED REPORTS. BY HTE WAY: TO BE HONEST, THE REAL EFFICIENCY SHOULD BE CALCULATED AFTER 3 P.M., WHEN THE E-CAT WAS STABILIZED, BUT, NEVERTHELESS, ALSO BEFORE IT THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY PRODUCED HAS BEEN MORE THAN THE CONSUMED…READ CAREFULLY THE PERIODS OF RESISTANCE SWITCH ON/SWITCH OFF DURING THE FIRST HOURS, BEFORE 3 P.M.: THE RESISTANCE HAS A POWER OF 2.5 Kw AT FULL LOAD, SO IF YOU MAKE IT GO 10 MINUTES YES AND 10 MINUTES NO YOU CONSUME 1.25 kWh/h, WHILE THE PRODUCTION WAS WELL ABOVE…AND WE WERE IN THE START UP UNSTABILIZED PHASE !!! AFTER THAT, WE WORKED WITH THE RESISTANCE FOR FEW MINUTES AND 3 AND A HALF HOURS WITHOUT RESISISTANCE TURNED ON. EVERYBODY CAN READ IT VERY CLEARLY IN THE NYTEKNIK REPORT.

2- IT HAS BEEN FRAUDOLENTLY WRITTEN IN THE BLOGS OF THE SNAKES THAT THE DEVICE HAS BEEN NOT WEIGHTED: FALSE, THE E-CAT AND ALSO THE CALORIMETRIC ASSEMBLY HAVE BEEN WEIGHTED BEFORE AND AFTER THE TEST, AND THIS IS CLEARLY WRITTEN IN THE SAME REPORT OF NYTEKNIK: CLEARLY, THE SNAKES THINK THAT THEIR READERS ARE SO STUPID NOT TO BE ABLE TO READ THE REPORT, BUT, UNFORTUNATELY FOR THEM, IT IS NOT SO. I WANT TO UNDERLINE THAT NOT ONLY ALL HAS BEEN WEIGHTED, BUT ALSO THAT AT THE END OF THE TEST I HAVE DISASSEMBLED IN FRONT OF ALL THE ATTENDANTS ALL THE PIECES, AND TAKEN OFF THE INSUILATION TO MAKE WELL CLEAR THAT EVERY COMPONENT WAS CLEAN, THAT THERE WERE NOT BATTERIES, OR ANY KIND OF POTENTIAL ENERGY SUPPLY INSIDE THE E-CAT AND INSIDE ALL THE OTHER COMPONENTS; FOR THIS REASON WE HAD TO STOP THE E-CAT, (WE FINISHED AROUND MIDNIGHT) OTHERWISE IT WOULD HAVE CONTINUED TO WORK ALONG THE SAME EFFICIENCY REACHED AFTER THE STABILIZATION. ALL THESE OPERATIONS HAVE BEEN MADE IN FRONT OF HIGH LEVEL SCIENTISTS ARRIVED FROM: UNIVERSITY OF UPPSALA, UNIVERSITY OF PARIS, UNIVERSITY OF BOLOGNA, US NAVY, RESEARCH CENTER OG CHINA, HIGH LEVEL INDUSTRIAL CONCERNS, UNIVERSITY OF ATHENS, AND I AM SURE I AM FORGETTING SOME: I ALLOWED ALL THIS PEOPLE TO BE PRESENT AN LOOK AT ALL THE OPERATIONS MADE DURING THE TEST: WEIGHTING, DISASSEMBLING, OPERATION, EVERYTHING! BESIDES: WEIGHTING ETC HAS NOT BEEN MADE BY US, TEMPERATURES HAVE NOT BEEN CONTROLLED BY US, BUT BY THE ATTENDANTS.
A SNAKE HAS WRITTEN THAT INSEDE THE E-CAT THERE WAS DIESEL OIL TO BE BURNT………JUST LOOK AT THE WEIGHTS: AT THE END OF THE OPERATION THE E-CAT WEIGHTED SOME GRAM MORE THAT BEFORE THE OPERATION….



Thank you for your question, very useful.

Warm Regards,
A.R.

I think its interesting that someone from US Navy was there.

But its frustrating that Rossi could not make a flawless test yet again. I think that the chance of scam is very minimal now, thanks to the opening of the ecat with no batteries or something like that inside.

And the setup was very conservative with a quite large disadvantage (heat loss) to the ecat and it looks like even with this there was more energy out than in.

But Giorgio has some good points, so who knows. I think the only option to really see if it works is to wait till he sells it to someone.

[parallel]

At 19:25 the H2 was allowed to escape and the cooling water rate increased.

And those are these little details that always spoil the thing... Why was water rate increased? And why it took so darn long to cool down after increasing water rate?

It would be much more convincing if hydrogen was depresurized and temperature would drop, with the same water rate. Always adding more variables and more dependencies seems like trying to fugde something.

I take this as a classic example of how the skeptics find fault with everything that Rossi does. Presumably the E-Cat doesn't stop producing heat immediately after the hydrogen is vented because enough remains embedded in the nickel.
So Luzr questions why it takes so long to cool and then in the next sentence wonders why the cooling water is increased to speed it up. Priceless. The witnesses have no need to go home that night.

stefanbanev,
While I agree with much of what you wrote, your comments were also patronizing. You don't know what will happen or details of the present circumstances yet leap to wild conclusions.

Giorgio,
Where did you see the details of the thermocouple application? At least there wouldn't be much stray DC voltage with everything connected by water. The accuracy doesn't matter that much providing it was enough to show that the E-Cat produced kWs of excess heat with the power turned off. For nearly four hours the E-Cat produced ~ 3kw and showed no signs of slowing down. You simply can't accept that is definite proof that it works and will nit-pick yourself to death rather than accept that.
If he had run it all night you would then say, "Ah it only works for 12 hours and won't run for a full day." The only way you will accept it works is after enough E-Cats are out in the market for many months.

CherryPick,
I haven't seen a report of radiation measuremet but I expect there was one. Rossi said there would be and it has been measured often enough before that this is not a concern.

I don't think Rossi is out of the woods yet. With the potential money involved many people and companies will try to screw him. I would guess the lawyers will make as much as Rossi before this is done.

[Maui]

Accuracy is not very relevant because the goal is just to show that eCat releases a lot of energy.

I would agree precision is not very relevant, but accuracy certainly is.

If you are referring to the temperature delta measurement, I don't believe we can trust the accuracy. When they weighed the eCat on a bathroom scale, I don't think anyone could have expected a very precise reading, so I don't think we would have good cause to question the accuracy (though with such low precision, this measurement isn't that useful). But in regards to the fluctuations in output temperature, the lack of precision is unexpected.

Without a good theory for why the temperature varied so much, I don't believe we can put any faith in the accuracy of these measurements. Therefore, I don't think we really have any data to show the eCat released a lot of energy.

[polyill]

Tech I think its interesting that someone from US Navy was there.

I think people, who type 4 paragraphs in CAPS are unstable.

[JLawson]

Tech I think its interesting that someone from US Navy was there.

I think people, who type 4 paragraphs in CAPS are unstable.

He's at least using paragraphs and punctuation. That in itself adds 50% to the stability quotient.

[Tech]

Every time he writes about "snakes" he uses CAPS. Maybe snakes dont like caps, who knows.

[Betruger]

Rossi is nothing but an obstacle to the only real valuable thing here. What the "e-cat" is made of.