What the heck is this GreenNh3

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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zbarlici
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What the heck is this GreenNh3

Postby zbarlici » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:47 am

Just saw it mentioned in a forum, thought i'd drop the link here for scrutiny.
Can i got some input please.
https://www.greennh3.com

A cucktube clip
https://youtu.be/h_a--dzr--o

paperburn1
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Re: What the heck is this GreenNh3

Postby paperburn1 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:48 am

duplicate
Last edited by paperburn1 on Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

paperburn1
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Re: What the heck is this GreenNh3

Postby paperburn1 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:58 pm

Anhydrous ammonia, used it on the farm for fertiliser, nasty stuff if you breath it. You are suppose to have special training to use it. Buying it bulk is about 25 cents a pound and about 5 pound to a gallon at 60 F'. You would need to burn about three times as much to get the efficiency as diesel and twice as much to equal propane.(if memory serves me correct) so it costs just as much to currently run on diesel, gasoline or propane. No cost savings at all. It is listed as a non flammable hazardous material for transport but it will burn. There is a reason why we do not use it for air conditioning or as fuel. when spilled it settles as a heavier than air gas until it has a chance to warm up just so it can screw you up. Anhydrous ammonia is a strong alkali that, when dissolved in water, readily reacts with copper, zinc, brass, and other alloys
Ammonia production depends on plentiful supplies of energy, predominantly natural gas. Ammonia is important for producing nitrogen fertilizer. It also has the potential to store and transport renewable energy. However, current ammonia production is very energy intensive—consuming 1 to 2 percent of world energy output. In addition, about 1.9 metric tons of carbon dioxide is produced for every metric ton of ammonia.


Anhydrous ammonia, a colorless gas with pungent, suffocating fumes, is used as an agricultural fertilizer and industrial refrigerant. When handled improperly, anhydrous ammonia can be immediately dangerous to life or health. Exposure to anhydrous ammonia is very dangerous because the gas is a hygroscopic compound that seeks moisture from the nearest source, which can be the moisture-laden tissue of the human body. ... Inhalation of anhydrous ammonia gas can cause a person's throat to swell shut, leading to suffocation. It is essential that all workers who use anhydrous ammonia wear the appropriate personal protective equipment (PPE), be equipped with necessary response supplies, and know how to respond in an emergency. PPE should include ventless goggles or a full-face shield, rubber gloves with long cuffs that can be rolled to catch drips, and a long-sleeved shirt. Non-rubber gloves made of ammonia-proof material are acceptable. Because contact lenses can trap the gas and become fused to the eye, it is recommended that individuals not wear contact lenses while working with anhydrous ammonia.

In the event of an exposure emergency, the most important resource is an ample supply of clean water to begin flushing the eyes and skin. If you use a vehicle to transport anhydrous ammonia, you must carry a 5 gal. container of clean water. Each person working with anhydrous ammonia should carry a 6 to 8 fl. oz. squeeze bottle of water at all times for rapid response to an emergency.
Last edited by paperburn1 on Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

kurt9
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Re: What the heck is this GreenNh3

Postby kurt9 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:03 pm

Anhydrous Ammonia is also used in commercial refrigeration systems such as those in large grocery distribution centers. It is nasty stuff. Control systems for such stuff are equipped with leakage sensors that shut the system down and call emergency response teams automatically if a leak should occur. Ideally you want to use a "safety" PLC for the leak detection and management portion of the system. You can use a regular controller (i.e. Controllogix, S7-1500) for the rest of the system.

zbarlici
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Re: What the heck is this GreenNh3

Postby zbarlici » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:37 am

Sorry bout the duplicate. Thanks for the info paper, Kurt.

...this polywell wait is really starting to irk me

cc
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Re: What the heck is this GreenNh3

Postby cc » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:26 am

NH3 is not appreciably more or less dangerous than gasoline. It is considerably lighter than air, dissipates upward, and is difficult to ignite. It is fairly harmless at low concentrations, and the odor alone will drive people to a safe distance. There is more information at the NH3 Fuel Association, under "Why NH3?".

It has one major advantage as a synthetic fuel, in that the it does not need a source of carbon; nitrogen and hydrogen are readily available from air and water, and NH3 can be produced with nuclear heat, making it near ideal. The energy density may not be enough for aviation, but it should be adequate for most other purposes, and increasingly attractive with more efficient engines like from LiquidPiston. (a fascinating and very different new rotary design for those interested in such things)

Nuclear Ammonia by Robert Hargraves is also an interesting read.

paperburn1
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Re: What the heck is this GreenNh3

Postby paperburn1 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:59 pm

cc wrote:NH3 is not appreciably more or less dangerous than gasoline


Having worked with anhydrous ammonia I am going to disagree with you. It in my opinion is not for the layperson a safe option. And as for being lighter than air that is true only when it warms up to room temperature. when first released the cold gas stays seated close to the ground until warmed. In a industrial setting this could be a good fuel but for joe across the street a resounding NO
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

kunkmiester
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Re: What the heck is this GreenNh3

Postby kunkmiester » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:55 pm

So how much trouble would it be for seals and stuff- - actually building an engine? Plus safety matters. Plus security, this is an explosive component.

What happens when a truck with 500 gallons of fuel crashes on a highway through a suburban area?
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paperburn1
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Re: What the heck is this GreenNh3

Postby paperburn1 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:00 am

kunkmiester wrote:So how much trouble would it be for seals and stuff- - actually building an engine? Plus safety matters. Plus security, this is an explosive component.

What happens when a truck with 500 gallons of fuel crashes on a highway through a suburban area?

Ammonia is very corrosive to copper and copper containing alloys and therefore,
equipment in contact with ammonia must be free of them. Ammonia is an alkaline gas. The pH of a 1% aqueous solution is approximately 11.7.
Ammonia in contact with certain other chemicals including mercury, chlorine, iodine,
bromine, calcium, silver oxide or hypochlorites can form explosive compounds.
Gaseous ammonia can react violently with nitrogen oxides and strong acids.
Ammonia gas is combustible, but it is very difficult to ignite. Experiments as well as
observations during accidents have shown that in the case of a release of ammonia in the
open air, the ammonia – air mixture is generally outside the flammability limits
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

cc
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Re: What the heck is this GreenNh3

Postby cc » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:28 am

paperburn1 wrote:
cc wrote:NH3 is not appreciably more or less dangerous than gasoline

Having worked with anhydrous ammonia I am going to disagree with you. It in my opinion is not for the layperson a safe option. And as for being lighter than air that is true only when it warms up to room temperature. when first released the cold gas stays seated close to the ground until warmed. In a industrial setting this could be a good fuel but for joe across the street a resounding NO

There are two papers linked from the site I referenced with detailed risk analysis that support my statement, and find that the risks posed are less than with LPG and similar to gasoline. NH3 requires greater care in a number of ways, but acceptable safety margins are possible. I think this a case where you know enough to worry, but even experience is not a substitute for risk analysis. (Disclaimer: I don't claim to have read those in their entirety, and have no intention of arguing the point further.)

The carbon-free advantage remains, and ammonia is still needed for agriculture, and already in wide use and distributed by pipelines. It is not the only synthetic fuel we would want, but it should not be dismissed.

kunkmiester wrote:So how much trouble would it be for seals and stuff- - actually building an engine? Plus safety matters. Plus security, this is an explosive component.

Ammonia has been used as a fuel in the past at times, and it is a solved problem. Speaking of seals, the layout of rotary engine that I linked avoids the sealing problem inherent to the Wankel design.

paperburn1
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Re: What the heck is this GreenNh3

Postby paperburn1 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:09 pm

I also found the engine report and design seemed very cool just from the weight savings aspect.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.


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