Extraterrestrial colony companies

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williatw
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Re: Extraterrestrial colony companies

Postby williatw » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:13 am

ladajo wrote:Typical Brown bias. The article demonstrates some leaps of logic, and a lot of naivety regarding what is currently going on in space as well. Meh. I think two things are going to drive the future of humanity, and they are interrelated in a big way: The coming (I hope) Energy Age, and its enablement of real human space access, The Interplanetary Age.


Man you guys are a tough crowd...here I post a vaulting optimistic pro-space pro-USA future hope and you just pick it apart. Like most things people do the emotional motivations are just as important (maybe more so) than the logical/practical at least initially. Okay; in the long term the development of let us say fusion drives would be needed to really open up the solar system and insure an adequate long term resource/energy base for the human races' long term "survival with style"; paraphrasing the late J.E. Pournelle--agreed. But we have to get there from here and reusable BFR developed by an apparently hyper-competent entrepreneur (Musk) in competition with another such (Bezos) who both seem to have a strong desire for space development. Earlier efforts from decades ago by the likes of say Gary Hudson didn't have the bucks to back them up, Bezos is now the richest man on the planet and is prepared to spend "a billion dollars a year" or some such. Combine that with a big new military push into space (Space force/SDI) by the US government (believe Musk has already indicated his support for such) looks to me to be just the recipe we need. As an aside any comments about DARPA looking into EmDrive?

https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/ ... a-emdrive/

A million bucks to start with and I am sure many more if it works out; I like the emphasis on orbit tending for (spy) satellites as the first application if it works out. DARPA has allot more money/clout to make things happen than NASA (Sonny White) has.
Last edited by williatw on Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

williatw
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Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:15 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Extraterrestrial colony companies

Postby williatw » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:22 am

paperburn1 wrote:I have to agree wholeheartedly. Our next big step needs to be the availability of cheap dependable energy for the long-term. We can go back to our historical record and find civilization after civilization basically collapsed because the lack of available energy to overcome flood, famine, climate change or invader. Somehow by luck or my personal opinion the introduction of caffeine along with the cheap easily accessible petroleum stocks we were able to enter into the Industrial Revolution and develop precision and repeatability.

Our next big hurdle is to have enough energy to maintain our society and crawl out of this gravity well that has been holding us back from becoming a truly interplanetary Society. I have a hypothesis that this is one of the reasons of the Fermi paradox. The developing civilization did not have enough energy to support the population and and leave the gravity well. It seems currently the most water worlds for life can exist are larger than our planet Earth. Most people don't realize that it only takes our planet being just a little bit larger and the ability to go into orbit increases by several factors reaching to the point where something 50% larger than Earth would be almost impossible to get the orbit using conventional means [ rocket fuel and oxygen ]

Under those assumptions it would be easy to see why have planet would not focus outward into space but inward into sustainability


If we develop fusion power (Polywell or some such) we would have both; power for domestic (Earth) usage and then access to easily the three orders of magnitude greater energy/material resources of the solar system at large. As for your argument about larger gravity wells that only makes sense if I assume they (the hypothetical aliens) never developed anything beyond chemical rockets at least for their launch systems. Surely at some point someone would invent a high thrust/energy to weight ratio nuclear drive of some sort. Hard to believe that hurdle explains the "Fermi Paradox"; I would guess some other kind of "Great Filter" that prevents intelligent technological species from occurring in the first place or causing them to not survive long afterwards for some reason.
Last edited by williatw on Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

hanelyp
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Re: Extraterrestrial colony companies

Postby hanelyp » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:38 am

paperburn1 wrote:
hanelyp wrote:If polar regions are premium real estate on the Moon, a transfer station at L1 or L2 seems a strategic location to catch a shuttle to the lunar surface. I'm assuming a transportation architecture where using 3 specialized spacecraft and 2 transfer stations, one in LEO and the other somewhere near the moon.


L1, L2, and L3 are positions of unstable equilibrium. Any object orbiting at L1, L2, or L3 will tend to fall out of orbit; it is therefore rare to find natural objects there, and spacecraft inhabiting these areas must employ station keeping in order to maintain their position. In contrast to L4 and L5, where stable equilibrium exists would require no fuel to remain in the basic same location. I think that would be a huge plus as far a logistics go and would not cost that much more in Delta V. (I have not done the math , this is just an assumption)

The distance from L4 or L5 to the moon tends to defeat the purpose of using a separate spacecraft between LEO and near-lunar space. With a change of ships in lunar orbit or L1,L2 you can have one ship with larger accommodations or higher delta_V from LEO to near-lunar space, and another ship with lighter cabins or higher acceleration capability for surface operations.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

paperburn1
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Re: Extraterrestrial colony companies

Postby paperburn1 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:34 pm

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Last edited by paperburn1 on Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

paperburn1
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Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:53 am
Location: Third rock from the sun.

Re: Extraterrestrial colony companies

Postby paperburn1 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:37 pm

williatw wrote:
As for your argument about larger gravity wells that only makes sense if I assume they (the hypothetical aliens) never developed anything beyond chemical rockets at least for their launch systems. Surely at some point someone would invent a high thrust/energy to weight ratio nuclear drive of some sort. Hard to believe that hurdle explains the "Fermi Paradox"; I would guess some other kind of "Great Filter" that prevents intelligent technological species from occurring in the first place or causing them to not survive long afterwards for some reason.


Your right, I did make the assumption that "this is too hard lets do something else" We as a species have already started down this path. We no longer have the capability of the heady days of Apollo. Entire space shuttle complex is shut down . The space station is in danger of being shut down as well because we don't have the same capability we had before. The entire ISS could been launched on five Apollo missions but instead through poor planning?/? We chose to go the route of the space shuttle and lost a large amount of capability.It took almost 100 launches of the space shuttle to complete the ISS. Until the advent of Elon's must space X Corporation we were doing a slow and steady slide into space exploration being a tiny niche Operation of government and a few scientists.A lightweight fusion reactor like the Polywell would definitely be a boon and a game changer but I can see a people after losing their space capability no longer being able to get the Ambition to return to space because once again space is hard.Maybe that is the quote great filter quote is limiting people to being interplanetary explorers or more importantly interstellar explorers . Because something surely is and we need to figure out what it is to be prepared to be a space faring nation.

As for nuclear rockets we literally have had that capability for 40 years but due to the nuclear hysteria that seems to exist we've never pushed past those boundaries to find a way to use nuclear energy for space travel and God forbid if anyone even considers trying to use a nuclear rocket in the atmosphere. I think the space elevator and waterfall are just engineering dreams rather than a true potential solution at least for the near term and that a spacefaring civilization would have to see the benefits of space travel and the economic benefits as well as the societal benefits to even pursue one of the more esoteric forms of getting to orbit

Just my humble opinion hopefully I'm proven wrong on all counts will gladly admit it especially if I'm sitting in my chair on the lunar station supervising all my minions
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.


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