The Widening Divisions

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MSimon
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The Widening Divisions

Postby MSimon » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:39 pm

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/06/12/7-things-to-know-about-polarization-in-america/

This comment is interesting (emph added):

...and basically say that most liberals prefer living in big cities and conservatives prefer the opposite, and conservatives want to be in communities where most share their religious beliefs. They’re describing the South, the Bible Belt, where you can get a big house for not much money but you’re often going to have to drive a ways to get to civilization.

Other polls tell us the rest. We know from all the available data that the biggest part of the conservative base are old white men heavily concentrated in the South, where I live. Time is going to change things considerably as much of the GOP base dies off. Hopefully the angry old white man thing dies off with them and we get past all this divisiveness that is so harmful to this nation. I don’t see us getting super liberal like you, but even in the south younger people are much more socially liberal than old folks. I’m not just talking about people under 30. People under 60 down here tend to be way more “liberal” on social issues than those a few years older than them. Even our younger religious people are way more open-minded than older Southerners. Cable TV, the internet, syndicated radio broadcasts, all of these things have made it a much smaller world and those of us who grew up in the Seventies and beyond are not that different than people our age in the rest of the country. Republicans had better figure that out if they want to stay in power down here.

My response:

They are different ecological niches. And the rules for those niches are different. The thermodynamics of those places is different.

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2009/11/blue-and-red.html

A live and let live attitude would be the best.

==================

The difficulty is that none are looking at the big picture. Neither can see the other. At least for now.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

TDPerk
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Re: The Widening Divisions

Postby TDPerk » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:31 am

Look you idiot, you don't want the GOP to die off--the liberals don't do math.

For more then a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, you have to do math.
molon labe
montani semper liberi
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MSimon
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Re: The Widening Divisions

Postby MSimon » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:12 am

TDPerk wrote:Look you idiot, you don't want the GOP to die off--the liberals don't do math.

For more then a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, you have to do math.


Look you idiot

High praise indeed.

And of course I want the GOP to die off. I don't want minders or a culture of spying. But I want the liberals to go as well.

The death of the GOP as a religious party is well underway (1,000 a day by my reckoning). Events will destroy the liberals if nothing else does. I'd like to see a course correction before that. But it is not necessary.

The end of Prohibition is well in hand. 31 States have some kind of med pot law on the books. It is practically non-controversial at this point. At the end of that trail is legalization. I'd say no later than 2020 to get the Feds out.

Now if the GOP went in a libertarian direction (you know - the limited government thing) I'd be on board with them. But they are just as obsessed with control as the Ds are. Just about different things.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

paperburn1
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Re: The Widening Divisions

Postby paperburn1 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:24 am

It has been my experience , when something dies out something far worse grow in place of it.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Betruger
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Re: The Widening Divisions

Postby Betruger » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:57 am

For example?
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

MSimon
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Re: The Widening Divisions

Postby MSimon » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:22 am

paperburn1 wrote:It has been my experience , when something dies out something far worse grow in place of it.


So the demise of alcohol prohibition has left things worse off? Seen any mass movement for the revival of that golden age? Me either.

And consider 1932 and the position of the two parties on that question.

Will history repeat? Not exactly. But close enough. The Republicans are supposed to be Masters of History and claim to have learned its lessons. I'm not seeing it.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

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Re: The Widening Divisions

Postby williatw » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:28 am

MSimon wrote:Now if the GOP went in a libertarian direction (you know - the limited government thing) I'd be on board with them. But they are just as obsessed with control as the Ds are. Just about different things.



What about a potentially libertarian minded Democrat?:








http://time.com/#2824620/brian-schweitzer-montana-governor-2016-presidential-campaign/

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Re: The Widening Divisions

Postby MSimon » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:48 am

williatw wrote:
MSimon wrote:Now if the GOP went in a libertarian direction (you know - the limited government thing) I'd be on board with them. But they are just as obsessed with control as the Ds are. Just about different things.


What about a potentially libertarian minded Democrat?:

http://time.com/#2824620/brian-schweitzer-montana-governor-2016-presidential-campaign/


There are some problems:

On the Barack Obama presidency

I was very hopeful. I was like everyone else. I’m an idealist. And when Obama was elected, all of these things were going to happen. We were going to get out of these foreign entanglements. We were going to show the world that we were a country of laws, and we were going to close Guantanamo Bay. We were going to have a healthcare system that actually worked, that challenged expenses. But one by one, all that stuff was dashed.

http://time.com/2824620/brian-schweitzer-montana-governor-2016-presidential-campaign/
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Diogenes
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Re: The Widening Divisions

Postby Diogenes » Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:26 pm

MSimon wrote:
paperburn1 wrote:It has been my experience , when something dies out something far worse grow in place of it.


So the demise of alcohol prohibition has left things worse off?



Now that *IS* an interesting question. I'm thinking that in terms of body count, we are way worse off. Deaths caused by Alcohol are way up over what they were in 1932. It occurs to me that since you regard yourself as an expert on this issue, how about you take the contrary position for a moment and give us an objective analysis as to whether we are better off or worse off as a nation since Alcohol was re-legalized.


I'm sorta thinking you can't, but i'm willing to see if you will even try.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

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Re: The Widening Divisions

Postby MSimon » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:24 pm

Deaths caused by Alcohol are way up over what they were in 1932.


But the murder rate declined by 50% at the end of prohibition. And of course with criminal income cut back corruption declined some.

And the really important question: do most people think it is worth trying again? NO.

What has never made sense to me is why the Right is so avid for price supports for criminals. Profiteering? I suppose. Prohibition is profitable for enforcers and criminals alike. They don't call it the "prison industrial complex" for nothing. Caging people for profit.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

paperburn1
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Re: The Widening Divisions

Postby paperburn1 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:52 pm

Betruger wrote:For example?

If you need me to show you examples , your really not paying attention. And this is not just about Simon's favorite subject. This is a life in general statement.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

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Re: The Widening Divisions

Postby MSimon » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:17 pm

paperburn1 wrote:
Betruger wrote:For example?

If you need me to show you examples , your really not paying attention. And this is not just about Simon's favorite subject. This is a life in general statement.


I'm probably a little thick but that doesn't SEEM like an example.

And your attitude seems like "we can't change anything - it will make things worse" - because we live in the best of all possible times.

But maybe in a way you are correct. America in its early days had a libertarian tone to its politics. When we got two Progressive Parties in America (around 1910) that all changed. Maybe it is getting to be time to return at least in part to the old ways.

Anyway - I'd like to see the demise of both Progressive Parties. But I'll settle for one or the other - as a start.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

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Re: The Widening Divisions

Postby hanelyp » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:03 pm

williatw wrote:What about a potentially libertarian minded Democrat?

What is this mythological beast you speak of?
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

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Re: The Widening Divisions

Postby williatw » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:31 pm

paperburn1 wrote:It has been my experience , when something dies out something far worse grow in place of it.


paperburn1 wrote:
Betruger wrote:For example?

If you need me to show you examples , your really not paying attention. And this is not just about Simon's favorite subject. This is a life in general statement.


Like for instance.... what about medical science causing the "deaths" of smallpox, bubonic plague, diptheria, polio etc. (at least in the developed world)? What would be the worse thing that took their place?

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Re: The Widening Divisions

Postby paperburn1 » Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:00 am

Ok, lets make this simpler, when thing evolve and adapt to the changes of the forces around it there is the possibility of improvement, BUT when something is ripped from the system the force that fills its gap usually is not for the better.
Medical SCIENCE is not a social force.
I am implying more of a Rene Descartes view of social events.
"So it seems reasonable to conclude that physics, astronomy, medicine, and all other sciences dealing with things that have complex structures are doubtful; while arithmetic, geometry and other studies of the simplest and most general things – whether they really exist in nature or not – contain something certain and indubitable. For whether I am awake or asleep, two plus three makes five, and a square has only four sides. It seems impossible to suspect that such obvious truths might be false."
So if you rip or let the republican "die" from the system then what takes its place will not be a benefit to the social organism in the long run. If something is nurtured to replace that republican ideal then there can be a progress forward.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.


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