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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:26 am 
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.



When it could have made a difference,it was withheld, now it is too late to do any good.


And all for such a stupid reason. On the one hand, you have a loomingeconomic collapse, Schutzstaffel-like Federal Police coming, Gestapo like Federal agencies, an absolutely government controlled propaganda corps, and a population preparing for war.



On the other hand, Smoking pot is far more important than is massive economic and social destruction.


By the standards of reasonable people, that's just bad judgement.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:48 am 
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Agreed. The democrat (ICK!) party is an existential threat to the US as a free and prosperous nation. Drug prohibition, even if you accept the libertine argument, is a minor annoyance by comparison.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:41 am 
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But I can't be a fiscal conservative if I'm not a social conservative. You said so yourself D. And you are not the only one.

It has nothing to do with pot. Although the pogrom on pot users is a huge waste of money. On the order of $100 bn a year direct costs - state, federal local. Not to mention the families it throws on welfare. And the kids who grow up without fathers. And the racist enforcement of the laws.

But that is minor. Unless you count the majority now favoring legalization. Or the 70% to 80% favoring med pot.

I suppose it is a good idea to drive those voters away. I'm sure you can figure out how to win with a minority of the votes.

But I digress. For me that is a minor obstacle. Proof? I supported Republicans in 2002, 2004 (except for Alan Keyes), 2006, 2008, 2010, and 2012 (except for Romney and since I live in Illinois my vote didn't matter - nice way to register a protest though).

===

What I object to is being told I can't be a fiscal conservative if I'm not a social conservative. And I'm not the only one who objects to that.

If that is the way you feel (as you have so expressed) I'm in favor of letting things get worse. Until you WANT me as an ally. And not just you. There is a whole swath of social conservatives with your opinion.

Perhaps you might care to educate them as well. Or not.

===

You want allies in the fight? Attract them.

I can work with the socialists. Can you?

===

Let me explain politics to you in our system. Party policy is made by those least attracted to the Party - until you have enough to win elections. Winning is done on the margins. Driving away marginal voters is how losers play. You want to be a loser? I will be glad to help.

Personally I do not believe the stupid party is capable of changing their ways enough to win presidential elections. So far you have not proven me wrong.

How much pain can you stand before you feel it is wise to attract people to your flag? I'm betting I can stand more than you can.

===

Your core issue seems to be economics. If that situation is so dire perhaps giving up on the other issues at least temporarily might be wise. In order to win enough votes consistently enough to change the course.

I have yet to persuade someone who hold's your opinion that changes should be made. Fine. Perhaps taking my vote and support elsewhere will have an effect. Or not.

I have reached the "screw you" stage. After over 10 years of being a pretty reliable Republican vote. And as I said. I hear similar things from others who are the object of the stupid party's vituperation. It is not just me.

You might want to meditate on this particular vote:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... -bush.html

It might provide a clue.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:47 am 
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My attitude is pretty much expressed here:

http://youtu.be/YVFku0P7qTA - a nice little Phil Collins ditty.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:24 am 
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hanelyp wrote:
Agreed. The democrat (ICK!) party is an existential threat to the US as a free and prosperous nation. Drug prohibition, even if you accept the libertine argument, is a minor annoyance by comparison.


If it is so minor why aren't you trying to attract those votes?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:37 am 
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Here is a comment I got on the subject from one of my readers:

@Simon ”data mining helps identify the marginal voter and the policies that will attract him/her.”

That only helps if you are willing to adopt the policies that will attract him/her. GOP seems determined to reject said policies.

Their choice, their bed, let them lie in it.

=====

I'm not the only one.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:59 am 
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Quote:
But I can't be a fiscal conservative if I'm not a social conservative. You said so yourself D. And you are not the only one.


This is the primary reason I'm no longer part of the Republican party nor do I affiliate myself with them. I'm a moderate fiscal conservative who happens to be somewhat socially liberal. The current Republicans demonize me and viciously attack me for not being "conservative enough" for them.

You don't insult the people your trying to recruit or convince to vote for you. Really bad recruiting tactics.

Previously the Republicans counted on the Southern Christians and old white people to win elections. The demographics of the modern voting population have shifted dramatically in the last 10 years. Their now younger, darker, less religious and more often then not get their information from multiple sources with the Internet being a major one.

If the Republicans want to have any power at all they need to reevaluate their entire platform and adjust it accordingly.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:07 pm 
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MSimon wrote:
But I can't be a fiscal conservative if I'm not a social conservative. You said so yourself D. And you are not the only one.

It has nothing to do with pot. Although the pogrom on pot users is a huge waste of money. On the order of $100 bn a year direct costs - state, federal local. Not to mention the families it throws on welfare. And the kids who grow up without fathers. And the racist enforcement of the laws.

But that is minor. Unless you count the majority now favoring legalization. Or the 70% to 80% favoring med pot.

I suppose it is a good idea to drive those voters away. I'm sure you can figure out how to win with a minority of the votes.

But I digress. For me that is a minor obstacle. Proof? I supported Republicans in 2002, 2004 (except for Alan Keyes), 2006, 2008, 2010, and 2012 (except for Romney and since I live in Illinois my vote didn't matter - nice way to register a protest though).

===

What I object to is being told I can't be a fiscal conservative if I'm not a social conservative. And I'm not the only one who objects to that.

If that is the way you feel (as you have so expressed) I'm in favor of letting things get worse. Until you WANT me as an ally. And not just you. There is a whole swath of social conservatives with your opinion.

Perhaps you might care to educate them as well. Or not.

===

You want allies in the fight? Attract them.



I'm not getting through. Firstly, It is TOO LATE for political allies to make a difference.


Secondly Libertarian ideas are unsustainable in the long term. They are exactly like Medicare and Social security. Seemingly workable when they are first proposed, but containing within them their own seed of destruction, and of which their proponents seemingly remain oblivious.


Libertarian ideas will kill us, just as surely as Liberal Fiscal ideas will kill us. Adding poison to the soup is a non starter.






MSimon wrote:
I can work with the socialists. Can you?




And I regard that as one of the most delusional statements ever. A lot of people throughout history thought they could work with Socialists. It did not turn out well.




MSimon wrote:

Let me explain politics to you in our system. Party policy is made by those least attracted to the Party - until you have enough to win elections. Winning is done on the margins. Driving away marginal voters is how losers play. You want to be a loser? I will be glad to help.



Again, we aren't likely to win (in this current system) ever again, and were we to "win" by adopting Libertarian ideas, we would still be screwed. You do not realize that you are merely offering a Hobson's choice, but with the added paradigm of having to reject principles and common sense in order to "lose" anyway.

There is no upside to your idea.



MSimon wrote:
Personally I do not believe the stupid party is capable of changing their ways enough to win presidential elections. So far you have not proven me wrong.

How much pain can you stand before you feel it is wise to attract people to your flag? I'm betting I can stand more than you can.





I'm betting you can't. All I have to do to get along is shut up and don't stir up trouble. (Probably too late now anyway.) You are going to have to deal with the civil unrest in your Urban Environment. Elections have consequences. Collapsing the dollar will translate directly into human misery.



MSimon wrote:

Your core issue seems to be economics. If that situation is so dire perhaps giving up on the other issues at least temporarily might be wise. In order to win enough votes consistently enough to change the course.




Romney was such a compromise. None of the Pro-lifers believed he would be a true supporter. None of the Social Conservatives believed he would promote any of their goals. The SoCons DID NOT WANT HIM, but they supported him because they thought the economic situation was simply too dire. (I think not all supported him, and that's one reason for his loss.)




MSimon wrote:


I have yet to persuade someone who hold's your opinion that changes should be made. Fine. Perhaps taking my vote and support elsewhere will have an effect. Or not.

I have reached the "screw you" stage. After over 10 years of being a pretty reliable Republican vote. And as I said. I hear similar things from others who are the object of the stupid party's vituperation. It is not just me.

You might want to meditate on this particular vote:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... -bush.html

It might provide a clue.



Nothing I didn't already know. The main fallacy you have in your critique is the notion that Keyes ran as a "theocon." His opinions are pretty much in the mainstream of the Black Community's thinking on the social/religious issues. Where he differs significantly from the Black mainstream is on economic issues. Why did Keyes get painted as a religious nut while the Reverend Jesse Jackson Jr. was not?

The Press regards Keyes as an enemy, while they regard the Reverend Al Sharpton, and the Reverend Jesse Jackson as allies. You've been played, and you don't even realize it yet.

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— Lord Melbourne —


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:11 pm 
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Too late for political allies? Well for you it is too late.

2012 was within the grasp of the Republicans. But they spent the time from 2008 to 2012 making enemies instead of allies. Clever. Very clever. Too clever by half.

Too stupid to understand how politics works.

Well there is Rand Paul on the horizon. If he is on the ticket I will vote Republican again. And convince my friends to do the same.

America will never become the Social Conservative Country you crave. And for that I'm eternally grateful.

I do believe smaller government has a future and the DEA is my first target. It has always been my target. Fortunately I can work with the left and the libertarians on that. Enough of a coalition to do the job. Once one piece is missing from the puzzle it will be easier to remove other pieces.

But I do thank you. Your admission of defeat gives me hope. Well more hope. Because unlike you my faith remains undiminished. It is what allows me to take on impossible projects and succeed. I have been doing that my whole life. Why stop now? Polywell is funded. The Drug War is ending. The Communists are my next task. With you and those like you out of the picture my chances on that last one are greatly improved.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:19 pm 
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If Sharpton and Jackson come out against Prohibition I will work with them on it.

I can make allies.

Prohibition is the one place the left wants smaller government. I intend to use that weakness against them.

You see I intend to play them.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:35 pm 
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Sharpton: The 'War on Drugs' is waged on poor African-Americans

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-0 ... ine-crimes

Jesse Jackson Wants to End the War on Drugs

http://reason.com/blog/2011/06/07/jesse ... to-end-the

===

Heh.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:47 pm 
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Let me add that breaking the fanatical progressive socon hold on the Republican Party was another of my impossible dreams. It looks like I'm getting that one as well.

I can work with socons. I have a local libertarian socon that I made friends with last year. He wants to meet up with me again. I look forward to it.

I can make allies.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:03 am 
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MSimon wrote:
Too late for political allies? Well for you it is too late.

2012 was within the grasp of the Republicans. But they spent the time from 2008 to 2012 making enemies instead of allies. Clever. Very clever. Too clever by half.

Too stupid to understand how politics works.



The founders were stupid like that. They set a good example in my opinion.



MSimon wrote:
Well there is Rand Paul on the horizon. If he is on the ticket I will vote Republican again. And convince my friends to do the same.

America will never become the Social Conservative Country you crave. And for that I'm eternally grateful.




You think Burkean\Locke philosophy is just a matter of personal preference. I think it is a essential component of a civil society. The notion that society will not abide by the necessary rules of civilization translates to me as "We will have a collapsed society."

How you can figure it will maintain stability I cannot comprehend. Your feedback loops are all positive.



MSimon wrote:
I do believe smaller government has a future and the DEA is my first target.


Of course, the most trivial and inconsequential aspect of the whole bloody mess. It's like polishing the hood of a wrecked car.



MSimon wrote:
It has always been my target. Fortunately I can work with the left and the libertarians on that. Enough of a coalition to do the job. Once one piece is missing from the puzzle it will be easier to remove other pieces.



Sometimes you crack me up. :)


MSimon wrote:
But I do thank you. Your admission of defeat gives me hope.



Defeat? Not sure what you are talking about. You can't defeat a force of nature. What I am admitting is that the political system has become non-functional. The forces necessary to stabilize the system politically will no longer operate, but the larger forces which are behind them will not be subject to the will of any people, no matter how large the majority might be. You cannot vote reality away.


The monetary/social system is becoming asymptotic. Nature abhors an asymptote. :)





MSimon wrote:


Well more hope. Because unlike you my faith remains undiminished. It is what allows me to take on impossible projects and succeed. I have been doing that my whole life. Why stop now? Polywell is funded. The Drug War is ending. The Communists are my next task. With you and those like you out of the picture my chances on that last one are greatly improved.



If you win, you lose. You just can't see it because you have been reading your own press releases for too long.


By the way, here is an excerpt from somethingI just read yesterday.


Quote:
Cocaine wasn't even illegal until 1914 -- 11 years after Coca-Cola's change -- but a massive surge in cocaine use was at its peak at the turn of the century. Recreational use increased five-fold in a period of less than two decades.



Kinda explains that "How did we get above Zero usage?" question which you never answer.


Here's another link to a book which refutes a lot of your argument.


http://books.google.com/books/about/Coc ... OQycfkoasC
Quote:

Challenging "traditional thinking about both the 'rise' and 'fall' of drug problems" (which makes legal prohibition the pivotal point in the story), Spillane examines phenomena that have eluded earlier students of drug history. He explores the role of American business in fostering consumer interest in cocaine during the years when no law proscribed its use, the ways in which authorities and social agents tried nonetheless to establish informal controls on the substance, and the mixed results they achieved.

In asking how this pain-allaying drug became recognizably dangerous, how reformers tried to ameliorate its social effects, and how an underground of cocaine abusers developed even before regulation of the drug industry as a whole, Spillane discovers contingency, complication, and mixed motives. Arguing that the underground drug culture had origins other than in federal prohibition can tell us as we face questions about drug policy today.




Enjoy!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:10 am 
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MSimon wrote:
If Sharpton and Jackson come out against Prohibition I will work with them on it.



Of COURSE you will!!!! That's my entire point. It's not the Religious crap you object to, it's whether or not they agree with you about YOUR religion.(Plus whether or not the media has stoked you up against them.)



MSimon wrote:
I can make allies.



Wasn't Joseph Stalin an ally with someone once? I wonder how that turned out?


MSimon wrote:
Prohibition is the one place the left wants smaller government. I intend to use that weakness against them.



And they want it for the same reason they want the other things that they want. Because they see it as a destabilizing influence on their enemies. One would think that would be clue enough for you, but you seem to believe that these people can be right about something.


MSimon wrote:
You see I intend to play them.


Said the fly to the spider.

:)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:46 am 
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Well I don't fear cocaine. I don't fear heroin. I don't fear LSD. I don't fear marijuana.

I do fear big government.

I will work with anyone who will work with me to reduce it. Even if they only want to reduce parts. What I want to do is get people in the habit of reduction.

I want to get people out of the Progressive habit. "Government is the Solution." My first step is to destroy the Progressives on the right. By your own admission I'm well along on that. The job should be completed well enough by 2014 to start rebuilding the Republicans on more libertarian lines. If that can be accomplished, by 2016 there will be a Party strong enough to take on the Communists.

I have no objection to the society you envision. If you can accomplish it without government guns.

Which reminds me of something I said here:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... -bush.html

On social issues the socons should lead by example not government force. The persuasion of Jesus is better than the sword of Rome. If you are trying to get votes.

===

America is a center right country. If I can attract those the government now attacks I believe I can reduce the Communists to impotence.

You see I have a plan. And I am executing. With success.

The Progressives on the Right are failures. I intend to put them into the dust bin of history. I AM putting them in the dust bin of history.

And when you are ready to ally with me I will welcome you. Smaller government. Everywhere and for all time. Or for as long as you can keep it.


==

Republicans Against Marijuana Prohibition
http://www.conservativecannabis.org/our-story.html

Heh.

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Last edited by MSimon on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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