Tri-Alpha article published 2 may 2011

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Munchausen
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Tri-Alpha article published 2 may 2011

Postby Munchausen » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:01 pm

http://pop.aip.org/resource/1/phpaen/v1 ... horized=no

A high temperature field reversed configuration (FRC) has been produced in the newly built, world’s largest compact toroid (CT) facility, C-2, by colliding and merging two high-β CTs produced using the advanced field-reversed θ-pinch technology. This long-lived, stable merged state exhibits the following key properties: (1) apparent increase in the poloidal flux from the first pass to the final merged state, (2) significantly improved confinement compared to conventional θ-pinch FRCs with flux decay rates approaching classical values in some cases, (3) strong conversion from kinetic energy into thermal energy with total temperature (Te + Ti) exceeding 0.5 keV, predominantly into the ion channel. Detailed modeling using a new 2-D resistive magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) code, LamyRidge, has demonstrated, for the first time, the formation, translation, and merging/reconnection dynamics of such extremely high-β plasmas.


Comments?

Joseph Chikva
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Re: Tri-Alpha article published 2 may 2011

Postby Joseph Chikva » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:19 pm

Munchausen wrote:http://pop.aip.org/resource/1/phpaen/v18/i5/p056110_s1?isAuthorized=no

A high temperature field reversed configuration (FRC) has been produced in the newly built, world’s largest compact toroid (CT) facility, C-2, by colliding and merging two high-β CTs produced using the advanced field-reversed θ-pinch technology. This long-lived, stable merged state exhibits the following key properties: (1) apparent increase in the poloidal flux from the first pass to the final merged state, (2) significantly improved confinement compared to conventional θ-pinch FRCs with flux decay rates approaching classical values in some cases, (3) strong conversion from kinetic energy into thermal energy with total temperature (Te + Ti) exceeding 0.5 keV, predominantly into the ion channel. Detailed modeling using a new 2-D resistive magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) code, LamyRidge, has demonstrated, for the first time, the formation, translation, and merging/reconnection dynamics of such extremely high-β plasmas.


Comments?

Dr. Norman Rostoker, about 100 millions investment for proving the feasibility of method. This is all what I know.

Stefank
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Postby Stefank » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:53 pm

That is an interesting paper, looks like Tri-Alpha has built a duplicate of the Helion device, pretty far removed from their published patents..

S

Joseph Chikva
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Postby Joseph Chikva » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:29 pm

Stefank wrote:That is an interesting paper, looks like Tri-Alpha has built a duplicate of the Helion device, pretty far removed from their published patents..

S

I am not familiar with Helion's approach.
Yes, I saw their animation but do not know anything more.
I was wondering too when have read that colliding proton and boron beams was changed by colliding toroids.

kurt9
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Postby kurt9 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:30 pm

Stefank wrote:That is an interesting paper, looks like Tri-Alpha has built a duplicate of the Helion device, pretty far removed from their published patents..

S


Well, both of them are FRC concepts. Its my understanding that Helion's FRC cannot do p-B11 fusion. Perhaps this is the case with Tri-Alpha, which means they are no longer "tri-alpha".

Stefank
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Postby Stefank » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:48 pm

Why do you think the 'Helion' type device cannot perform p -> Boron fusion?

S

D Tibbets
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Postby D Tibbets » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:46 am

Take this with a grain of salt, but I seem to recall that the Helion device is a thermalized plasma, and as such, bremsstrulung radiation makes it difficult for P-B11 fusion to reach breakeven.

Polywell avoids this through nonthermal plasma, and the fuel ratios; DPF hopes to reclaim most of the X-ray energy at high efficiency.

Also, the bremsstrulung losses would increase the difficulty of reaching ignition conditions, which I believe are required for all of these systems except for the Polywell.

I did have the impression that the Tri- Alpha approach claimed the possibility of non thermal plasmas. Perhaps they have abandoned that goal, or perhaps they have placed it on the back burner as they persue less demanding D-D fusion. In a sence this is an advanced fuel because while there are neutrons, they are only ~ 1/4th the strength, and the difficulty of breeding tritium is avoided. And , there is still D-He3 possibilities for a subset of the FRC reactors as He3 could be harvested from the D-D parent reactors.*

*He3 harvesting is anticipated to be straight forward for Polywells, if the Tri-Alpha FRC uses ignition, at least some of the He3 will be burned before it escapes from the reaction space.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

Joseph Chikva
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Postby Joseph Chikva » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:29 am

kurt9 wrote:
Stefank wrote:That is an interesting paper, looks like Tri-Alpha has built a duplicate of the Helion device, pretty far removed from their published patents..

S


Well, both of them are FRC concepts. Its my understanding that Helion's FRC cannot do p-B11 fusion. Perhaps this is the case with Tri-Alpha, which means they are no longer "tri-alpha".

"Can not do p-B11 fusion" means that they can D-T?
I can not understand from Helion's animation how are they going to get net power colliding accelerated plasma clots or toroids?
Is there meant that those clots are so dense that one collision would be enough?

zapkitty
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Postby zapkitty » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:15 am

Joseph Chikva wrote:"Can not do p-B11 fusion" means that they can D-T?
I can not understand from Helion's animation how are they going to get net power colliding accelerated plasma clots or toroids?
Is there meant that those clots are so dense that one collision is enough?


Yes, Helion is standard neutronic fusion.

You're missing a component, though: the middle of the core, where the opposing plasmoids collide and merge into one, is wrapped in a superconducting coil that will pulse a heck of a squeeze on the plasmoid just after the collision and compress it to D-T fusion.

The total energy applied to the plasma is a combination of the collision energy of the two smaller plasmoids and then the compression energy applied to the resultant larger plasmoid.

Joseph Chikva
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Postby Joseph Chikva » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:43 am

zapkitty wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote:"Can not do p-B11 fusion" means that they can D-T?
I can not understand from Helion's animation how are they going to get net power colliding accelerated plasma clots or toroids?
Is there meant that those clots are so dense that one collision is enough?


Yes, Helion is standard neutronic fusion.

You're missing a component, though: the middle of the core, where the opposing plasmoids collide and merge into one, is wrapped in a superconducting coil that will pulse a heck of a squeeze on the plasmoid just after the collision and compress it to D-T fusion.

The total energy applied to the plasma is a combination of the collision energy of the two smaller plasmoids and then the compression energy applied to the resultant larger plasmoid.

That's clear. But I do not know projected parameters.
And doubt that density of plasmoid there will be so high - enough for one collision. And I am sure that plasmoids will simply pass through each other with very low fusion rate.

zapkitty
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Postby zapkitty » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:25 am

Joseph Chikva wrote:That's clear. But I do not know projected parameters.
And doubt that density of plasmoid there will be so high - enough for one collision. And I am sure that plasmoids will simply pass through each other with very low fusion rate.


Then you need to gain a better understanding of the basic principles that the Helion crew are working with... because the things that you doubt and the things that you are sure of are diametrically opposed to what they are reporting from actual experiments.

Will they make it to the goal? I don't know. But apparently you are a bit behind the curve in this particular subject.

Joseph Chikva
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Postby Joseph Chikva » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:47 am

zapkitty wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote:That's clear. But I do not know projected parameters.
And doubt that density of plasmoid there will be so high - enough for one collision. And I am sure that plasmoids will simply pass through each other with very low fusion rate.


Then you need to gain a better understanding of the basic principles that the Helion crew are working with... because the things that you doubt and the things that you are sure of are diametrically opposed to what they are reporting from actual experiments.

Will they make it to the goal? I don't know. But apparently you are a bit behind the curve in this particular subject.

Yes, I said from the beginning that know almost nothing about Helion.
But compare plasmoid with galaxy and particles in plasmoid with stars.
Collision of two galaxies does not mean the collision of stars. But some stars will collide and others will pass through each other.
Can you provide data on number density of particles?

Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:00 am

Joseph Chikva wrote:But compare plasmoid with galaxy and particles in plasmoid with stars.
Collision of two galaxies does not mean the collision of stars. But some stars will collide and others will pass through each other.
Can you provide data on number density of particles?


You can't make that example, unless you have a superconducting ring around the merging point of the two galaxies that squeezes the stars (particles) to collide, as Zapkitty explained before:

zapkitty wrote:You're missing a component, though: the middle of the core, where the opposing plasmoids collide and merge into one, is wrapped in a superconducting coil that will pulse a heck of a squeeze on the plasmoid just after the collision and compress it to D-T fusion.

Joseph Chikva
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Postby Joseph Chikva » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:13 am

Giorgio wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote:But compare plasmoid with galaxy and particles in plasmoid with stars.
Collision of two galaxies does not mean the collision of stars. But some stars will collide and others will pass through each other.
Can you provide data on number density of particles?


You can't make that example, unless you have a superconducting ring around the merging point of the two galaxies that squeezes the stars (particles) to collide, as Zapkitty explained before:

zapkitty wrote:You're missing a component, though: the middle of the core, where the opposing plasmoids collide and merge into one, is wrapped in a superconducting coil that will pulse a heck of a squeeze on the plasmoid just after the collision and compress it to D-T fusion.

Not a difference superconducting magnets or conventionally conducting, are in existence magnets or not. Only number density vs. linear dimension has a matter.

Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:30 am

Joseph Chikva wrote:Not a difference superconducting magnets or conventionally conducting, are in existence magnets or not.

I know that very well, but they are using a superconducting magnet.
This is why the reference was made to the superconducting one and not to the normal one.

Anyhow this does not change the point of my previous post.
You cannot make the galaxy example because there is no magnet (supercoducting or not) that squeezes them increasing their density in the collision point.

As for the density value, if no one has the info I will look for it tonight when I go back home and send you a link to the paper.


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