The religious right

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Skipjack
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The religious right

Postby Skipjack » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:42 pm

in Turkey took home another win.
Turkey is more and more turning into a fundamentalist islamofascist country.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europ ... index.html

ladajo
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Postby ladajo » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:31 am

Look at the vote versus geography distribution.

I agree that the AKP is making gains, and has for the last three elections (second party ever to do that in Turkey), but they are doing so on a Margaret Thatcher commented failure system. Eventually, they will not be able to buy the poor vote with empty promises once they runthe country out of money (which they are fervently working at with the "Socialist Agenda".

I say it is not sustainable. I also say that the larger risk is what happens if they bankrupt and corruption collapse the country. A interesting point is that the Prime Minister's 25 year old son now owns the leading national small convienence store chain, which recently got enabled by national legislation into being the only authorised pharmacy outlet. So all the mom and pops, and independent pharmacies are closed, bought out, or closing. Not an accident.

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:54 am

My worry is that the mullahs are takig over turkey. Good god they are not part of the EU yet. The turks are already spreadig all over EU territorry.
Words of Erdogan in Cologne during a speech in front of 20,000 male turks: "In 20 years this place is ours!"
The German people is dead. This is what will take over. I am not sure it will be to anybodies advantage when that happens.

ladajo
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Postby ladajo » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:47 pm

I think your POV is distorted.
The Turks that go to Europe are not like the Turks that stay in Turkey. There are some crosses, but for the most part, they are seeking work and opportunity or leveraging existing (multigenerational) family ties. The poor ones that end up there are like poor migrant workers anywherer else in the world. They are seeking work so they can send some money home. Or even save money to get the rest of the family to where they are in order to make a new start.

I agree that sometimes the image painted is not a pretty one, and Erdogan himself does it on purpose to gain votes. He specifically targets the niave with empty statements and government and provate bribery to curry favor and votes. The man is not dumb. But if you take a step back and think about what he is saying, and what he does, you can see it for what it is. A lot of wind, noise, and flashy lights, but not actual long term substance. Think Wizard of Oz.

To be fair though, no matter the shift in perceptions, the Turkish economy has improved. Other things have not, such as freddom of information, and individual legal rights, but from my perspective, every country struggles with this type of thing, and the pendulum swings.

The bottom line is at least half of Turkey is moderate or better, less than half is unsure, and most of the remaining niave. The small core of hardliners are exactly that, a small core that does all they can to appear large. It is classic insurgency. As long as the moderates remain fractured (which is Erdogan's goal) the hardliners will eek out gains and appear powerful. But for now, the fact remains that the Turkish economy is solidly in moderate hands. Erdogan is working to break this power base, but I think he will run out of time.

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:39 pm

Ladajo, this is NOT what it looks like from here. I do not know what you base this on, but anything I can see and observe here screams the opposite.
Have you been to Germany recently? You would think that you are in Turkey! Austria is the same. Turkish bands of thugs roaming the streets.
Jewish people are once again not save in Germany, not because of the Germans, but because of the radical Turks there. They recently introduced the friday prayers at German universities. Stuff like that.
Of course the Germans and the Austrians are not allowed to say a word. You know, because of what happened 65 years ago. So we have to just stand by and watch as we fade away...

ladajo
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Postby ladajo » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:50 pm

So you don't think that these youth issues are based in lacking something better to do? Maybe if they had jobs or something? Is it possible that the bias is two way, with employers not wanting to hire those radical islamics who shouldn't live here anyway?

Come on. There are no other unemployed criminal gangs other than Turkish kids?

I have many German friends, as well as Turkish ones, and even when they say there is a problem, they all say that it is the extremes on both sides boiling the issue bigger that it is.

There are many Turkish famlies in Germany that have been there more than a generation, and they work, own businesses, and participate. The way you paint it, there would seem to be none.

As of two weeks ago, I was moving to Germany for about three years for another stint living in Europe. However, that recently changed for me, and I am taking another opportunity here in the US. My biggest motivator, not moving my kids for stability purposes. I would have liked to go again, (even if facing Turksih thug mobs), and will miss not having done so.

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:33 pm

So you don't think that these youth issues are based in lacking something better to do? Maybe if they had jobs or something? Is it possible that the bias is two way, with employers not wanting to hire those radical islamics who shouldn't live here anyway?

No, I dont think so.

I have many German friends, as well as Turkish ones, and even when they say there is a problem, they all say that it is the extremes on both sides boiling the issue bigger that it is.

There are no extremes on the other side... There is almost no other side left!
The majority of the German youth has migration background and most of them are turkish and have a muslim background.
Of course there are always some that have integrated nicely, but I cant say that this is true for most of them.

ladajo
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Postby ladajo » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:46 pm

It is unfortunate.

I am also aware that the EU has the same problems as the US regarding freeloaders. Those who work the minmium required amount, then ride the benefits bus, reaping far more than what they contribute.

This is a fundamental flaw in the Social Agenda. I am all about helping folks who need it to get back on their feet. But I am having no sympathy at all for those who chose to do nothing because they can get free stuff to sustain the policy.

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:52 pm

The free loaders would be half bad if it was only our own...
In the US you also have the other extreme. People working 2 or three part time jobs, never qualifying for medical insurance and other stuff.
They work harder than most and still fall through the system.

ladajo
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Postby ladajo » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:56 pm

I am not sure on that one. I will have to look at it. I thought that if someone worked more than 36 hours in a week total, that it qualified them for federal benefits. I am not sure if it must be with one employer, or can be between more than one as a total. My gut says total, but with doubt.

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:47 pm

Maybe federal benefits, but not health insurance...
AFAIK, the employers dont have to give you health insurance unless you work there for a certain amount of hours a week.
This is of course bull, because it simply causes them to just employ a lot of people for very few hours to get around the system.
As I said, my wifes cousin. 3 part time jobs, no health insurance through either one of them. Got pregnant, had to pay everything out of ther own pocket...
And this is not a single case, there are many people like that. Sure makes up for at least some of the free loaders that you in the US.

AcesHigh
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Postby AcesHigh » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:32 am

just start having more children, then the turks wont overcome you.


besides, do you think the christian religious right in the US is any better?

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=64512

(besides all the nonsense about the water cycle, it seems they dont like europeans nor catholics)

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:55 am

just start having more children, then the turks wont overcome you.


Working on it. Unfortunately you cant say it publicly, or you will be called a Nazi and sent into prison.

besides, do you think the christian religious right in the US is any better?

Never said it was, but if I had to choose, I would go with the one from the US ;)

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:13 pm

AcesHigh wrote:just start having more children, then the turks wont overcome you.

besides, do you think the christian religious right in the US is any better?

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=64512

(besides all the nonsense about the water cycle, it seems they dont like europeans nor catholics)


Yes. The TOTAL subjugation of women is not their goal. They value free speech.

As one religious right guy put it to me when I was complaining about them. "Would you rather have a hang nail or a heart attack?" I would rather not have either. But if forced to choose.....

Added: =======

In the US it is the religious people who are having more children. I'm rather an exception to that rule. I'm not a big believer. But I don't have to be. I have experience. Faith based religions are very open to manipulation. The other kinds somewhat less so.

I'm wary of "God told me you should...."

I'm more in favor of "God told me I should...."
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MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:50 pm

Skipjack wrote:Maybe federal benefits, but not health insurance...
AFAIK, the employers dont have to give you health insurance unless you work there for a certain amount of hours a week.
This is of course bull, because it simply causes them to just employ a lot of people for very few hours to get around the system.
As I said, my wifes cousin. 3 part time jobs, no health insurance through either one of them. Got pregnant, had to pay everything out of ther own pocket...
And this is not a single case, there are many people like that. Sure makes up for at least some of the free loaders that you in the US.


Well yes. Health insurance is a problem. But health care is not. You walk into a hospital with a complaint and you must be served. Pregnant women especially. The hospital has classes. Expensive? Yes. The deal is we can afford it. And our wait times are shorter. We like that. As in any queing system - if you over provision sufficiently the service is good. If you are efficient the wait times extend. And if you are perfectly efficient the system ceases to function (eventually).

The way income is spent (allocations) varies as you move up in income. The poor spend all their money on food (and shelter if they can afford it). You do not expect the same allocation in a $30K per capita economy as a $45K per capita economy.

====

Now should we be providing every one in the country with health care? It is probably a good idea from a public health standpoint.

But maybe we need to do something about those coming across.

Coyotes charge from $500 to $2,000 to get people across the border. We could set up way stations. Make them watch a video (choice of Spanish or English) about the US Constitution - (focus on the right to bear arms HEH.) give them a copy of the US Constitution (Spanish or English) and issue them a work visa and SS # (foreign nationals cannot collect).

Right away you make money on the deal. Spread your ideals. And to some extent you can track the individuals (SS#).

This makes more sense than our current approach (doing nothing) but we can't get there because the positions of all sides has hardened.
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