EM Drive

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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AcesHigh
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Re: EM Drive

Postby AcesHigh » Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:35 pm

Good to see you are still around Paul.

I guess you sometimes itch to post news and stuff here and at NASA Spaceflight, but the itch must persist because of the non disclosure contracts you signed, am I right? :lol:

Diogenes
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Re: EM Drive

Postby Diogenes » Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:12 pm

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

AcesHigh
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Re: EM Drive

Postby AcesHigh » Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:45 pm


birchoff
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Re: EM Drive

Postby birchoff » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:49 pm

Since aceshigh inadvertently pushed this conversation over to NASA Spaceflight :D. I found something interesting over there.

So the paper that cause the recent stir of excitement and lazy reporting was from a 2013 test campaign, that tested the Cannae device and a version of Shawyers tapered frustum.

however according to . It would seem that they also tested a device built by Boeing. Interestingly enough that device doesnt seem to be included in the report that was published. Does anyone have any ideas why this would be the case? Personally I am assuming there is some NDA or something similar governing the Boeing SFE test article. but if anyone has any better information I would love to hear it.

tokamac
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Re: EM Drive

Postby tokamac » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:32 pm

I also found this Eagleworks document from last year:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. ... 000851.pdf
which states (page 40) the SFE test article from Boeing/DARPA produced 20 to 110 µN of thrust on their pendulum. This would be comparable to the force produced by the EmDrive test article. But don't be impressed by the numbers though, because the SFE is relying on asymmetric capacitors like those from Thomas Townsend Brown, hence on the ion wind. So it's not propellantless, and wouldn't work in a vacuum. Please note however, that Hector Serrano, inventor of the SFE (Serrano Field Effect) and CEO of Gravitec Inc., insists on the contrary and ran tests in a hard vacuum of simpler, Brown-like, asymmetric capacitors.

I've just sent a message to Serrano about this Gravitec-Boeing-DARPA-NASA connection. We'll see if he answers.

BTW the Gravitec website is offline since early 2014 (like the Cannae LLC web site…). Here it is, . Poor information alas.

AcesHigh
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Re: EM Drive

Postby AcesHigh » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:47 pm

the biggest question on NSFForums thread right now is why haven´t they haven´t scaled up the test devices to tens/hundreds of kW, which according to the theories, would have increased the effect. Since Paul is an electric engineer, he could answer that, but the topic has increased in over 10 pages since last time Paul posted there.

I remember all the talks here at Talk Polywell about the search for materials, ceramics, etc, to increase the effect at Mach Effect test devices. I wonder if it´s related (considering Q-Thruster operates on Mach Effect principle, according to GiThruster)


Therefore, could the lack of scaling up of the Eagleworks Q-Thruster devices, through increased power input, be caused by the lack of such specific materials?

GIThruster
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Re: EM Drive

Postby GIThruster » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:27 pm

I would never pretend to speak for Paul, but I can relate to you what his positions have been in the past. Last I heard, he was still maintaining he believed that Sonny's QVF model and Jim's M-E model were opposite sides of the same coin, despite Jim, Sonny and myself keep arguing this cannot be true. As result, paul's interest was in low-k materials that can be run at high frequencies since these low k materials don't suffer the same non-linearities and other troubles most high k materials have.

I doubt the trouble is lack of materials. I think Eagle has been remarkably productive, and I have little complaint there. Scaling up a thruster to Newtons of force just to scale it up is not useful at this point. What you want are high figures of merit (FOM's) in thrust to mass and thrust to power. You can alway build arrays of thruster later on if you get decent FOM's.

I am still on record that I don't trust the data coming from Eagle, but I'd just note that it the rumors are true and three more NASA centers are going to jump into the fray and start testing, we'll have real answers in the next year or two. Stennis already has a balance, so they could do validation studies pretty quickly. NASA has remarkable resources. They just need to be properly tasked.

I would just note though, that for a commercial grade M-E thruster, you really do want a Colossal Dielectric Constant (CDC) material that maintains its constant up into very high frequencies. Paul wasn't looking at that stuff despite I did recommend some to him.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

GIThruster
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Re: EM Drive

Postby GIThruster » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:30 pm

I would never pretend to speak for Paul, but I can relate to you what his positions have been in the past. Last I heard, he was still maintaining he believed that Sonny's QVF model and Jim's M-E model were opposite sides of the same coin, despite Jim, Sonny and myself keep arguing this cannot be true. As result, Paul's interest was in low-k materials that can be run at high frequencies since these low k materials don't suffer the same non-linearities and other troubles most high k materials have.

I doubt the trouble is lack of materials. I think Eagle has been remarkably productive, and I have little complaint there. Scaling up a thruster to Newtons of force just to scale it up is not useful at this point. What you want are high figures of merit (FOM's) in thrust to mass and thrust to power. You can alway build arrays of thruster later on if you get decent FOM's.

I am still on record that I don't trust the data coming from Eagle, but I'd just note that if the rumors are true and three more NASA centers are going to jump into the fray and start testing, we'll have real answers in the next year or two. Stennis already has a balance, so they could do validation studies pretty quickly. NASA has remarkable resources. They just need to be properly tasked.

I would just note though, that for a commercial grade M-E thruster, you really do want a Colossal Dielectric Constant (CDC) material (k=>5,000) that maintains its constant up into very high frequencies. Paul wasn't looking at that stuff despite I did recommend some to him.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

birchoff
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Re: EM Drive

Postby birchoff » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:18 am

sounds like a reasonable reason. However, I really hope that more experiments are done on the ME devices.

birchoff
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Re: EM Drive

Postby birchoff » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:32 am


birchoff
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Re: EM Drive

Postby birchoff » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:39 am


paulmarch
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Re: EM Drive

Postby paulmarch » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:37 am

Paul March
Friendswood, TX

GIThruster
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Re: EM Drive

Postby GIThruster » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:08 pm

Well Paul, two things. First, in your analysis of the two models, you fail to note that they have completely contradictory positions about where inertia comes from. They in fact form an exhaustive disjunction. Either inertia comes from the ZPF, or it comes from gravity, but certainly it makes no sense to say it comes from both. These are not the same. And this is why Sonny has always argued that Jim must be wrong, and Jim has always argued that Sonny must be wrong. They could both be wrong. Inertia could be an intrinsic property of matter, but they cannot both be right and this is just what they say about what they propose.

Second thing yes, I understand you are reporting accurately as possible about what has been done in the lab. I also understand that Sonny has not wavered in his inexplicable drive to mislead people. Anyone who can stand up in front of a classroom of students the way he did in AZ, and lie to all of them the way he did, is not to be trusted. And Sonny controls what comes out of Eagleworks, so people can't trust what Eagle has to say, despite they have men of honor like yourself working there. Sonny has discredited himself and his work time and again as part of a regular pattern now for all the years I've known him, and it would be foolish not to note he is not trustworthy.

I am curious though, about one seemingly noteworthy part of this puzzle. Who had you sign an NDA? Sonny and Eagleworks, yes? Okay. Could you explain to me why Sonny said in his interview with PopSci that what he could say was restrained by an NDA? Who did Sonny sign an NDA with?
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Axil
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Re: EM Drive

Postby Axil » Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:08 pm


Carl White
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Re: EM Drive

Postby Carl White » Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:56 pm

So, here they've tested both an EMDrive-like device and a Cannae drive device in a hard vacuum. They've also taken care to mute the possible effects of distant wave action and seismic activity.

The plan remains to be creating Q-thruster test articles to be shipped to a few labs, namely the Glenn Research Center, JPL and possibly the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, for replication.


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