Polywell FOIA

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Maui
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Postby Maui » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:21 am

icarus wrote:Prediction: here's some info you won't be needing a FOI request to find out ... cost over-runs and schedule delays.

I've seen this "show" before, yawn, wake me up when they have a commercial reactor.

My thoughts exactly. :cry:

icarus
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Postby icarus » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:25 am

Show me the data.

From a hard-core sceptical viewpoint, so far it's all just bluster, wind and BS. Fusion ... uh-huh, extra-ordinary claims still require extra-ordinary evidence, even if we are in the new age of "feel-good science" like climate change. From the current round of experiments, all we have is a one line "Successfully completed" in lieu of data. Up to now, EMC2 had benefit of doubt from me, at this point my BS detector is fully pricked ... just a few more hungry mouths looking for an easy mark like the tax-payers. All the possible problems will magically scale away into the sunset .... just give us $200 mill., uh-huh.

Can't wait until Art comes around again ... if he can be bothered.

Maui
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Postby Maui » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:27 am

Simon, are you now regretting that the Obama administration fully funded polywell?

Betruger
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Postby Betruger » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:36 am

icarus wrote:Show me the data.

From a hard-core sceptical viewpoint, so far it's all just bluster, wind and BS. Fusion ... uh-huh, extra-ordinary claims still require extra-ordinary evidence, even if we are in the new age of "feel-good science" like climate change. From the current round of experiments, all we have is a one line "Successfully completed" in lieu of data. Up to now, EMC2 had benefit of doubt from me, at this point my BS detector is fully pricked ... just a few more hungry mouths looking for an easy mark like the tax-payers. All the possible problems will magically scale away into the sunset .... just give us $200 mill., uh-huh.

Can't wait until Art comes around again ... if he can be bothered.
If by hard core you mean pessimistic.

DeltaV
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Postby DeltaV » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:41 am

JohnFul wrote:I don't recall seeing this one before. Anyone know what that was about?

http://www.nmsbaprogram.org/LinkClick.a ... &tabid=202

Page 15.

That (high-speed camera diagnostics used at EMC2) has been mentioned here before, but I don't recall where.

EMC2 is moving forward on plans to construct a $30 million dollar prototype.

This seems intermediate in cost between WB-8 and WB-D, so is it WB-9?

Betruger
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Postby Betruger » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:56 am

That pdf mag is dated 2008.

JohnFul
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Postby JohnFul » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:05 am

That pdf mag is dated 2008.


Set the wayback clock to 2008. This is WB-7. I recall there were some initial issues, arcing I thought. Ok, so the high speed camera diagnostics tracked down the problem. The part I don't understand is the spectral analysis of the impurities. What was that all about? In the end, the problem was resolved. I do recall a comment about running like a top producing data or something like that. The $30 million does sound like WB-9 before the WB-8 contract was let.

J

IntLibber
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Postby IntLibber » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:08 am

Betruger wrote:IntLibber - I didn't argue legitimacy. The website update just cued it, for me.
If anything, I probably agree with Ladajo. Doc Bussard meant for max spread and progress. How does holding cards to chest on proprietary grounds further this objective?


Because the only way to get maximum progress with advancing this technology is to put market forces to work, which means keeping the asset value of the IP so that it attracts venture capital in order to develop.

Public domain information is worthless and attracts no capital.

Betruger
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Postby Betruger » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:16 am

You mean strictly for the development phase, right? Or do you mean there's no profit for large business or industrial entities to get their hands on such an efficient energy scheme?

TallDave
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Postby TallDave » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:47 am

There have been many opportunities for Dr. Nebel to state it is proprietary work. He has not ever. He has always said he could not talk because of the contract.


I don't think he ever said it wasn't proprietary, and he does have an NDA. It's a bit much to expect him to give everything away.

I understand it's frustrating to put in this effort and get nothing out of it, but that was always the most likely outcome. This isn't a game, people's careers are on the line here. Suck it up, guys.

Let's at least hold off the seppuku till we see what the Cosmic Blog article says.
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:06 am

Maui wrote:Simon, are you now regretting that the Obama administration fully funded polywell?


No. It is as good a place to waste money as any. And who knows. It might work. All that has happened is that my estimation of the chances for success is lower and my estimation of Rick re: his understanding of human nature is reduced.

Who knows. Maybe EMC2 has a backer and they no longer need fans. Maybe in fact they don't want fans.

We will see what Alan Boyle has to say tomorrow.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
http://protonboron.com/
THE OPEN POLYWELL FUSION CONSORTIUM

Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:29 am

This was not a good news to read early in the morning......

mvanwink5
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Postby mvanwink5 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:50 am

From EMC2 web site, WB-7 validated the results of WB-6 and we have the WB-6 results (substantial data), no? Also, WB-8 has apparently run long enough to verify confinement behavior since EMC2 web site lists that as proven. So the FOIA turn down means what, that not enough detailed engineering data to design WB-D yourselves (and China) is available? What am I missing in this big disappoint? Looks to me like the rest of the story is EMC2 getting pBJ data from WB-8.1 to engineer and build a pBJ WB-D, not whether it will work with D-D. What am I missing?

Looks to me to be an invite to a utility consortium, perhaps with GE or an engineering design group to build a test D-D WB-D as a retrofit steam plant drop in, then later when pBJ results are in, a build from scratch plant, no?
Near term, cheap, dark horse fusion hits the air waves, GF - TED, LM - Announcement. The race is on.

Betruger
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Postby Betruger » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:58 am

It's not that clear. "Proven" that data is such and such, but that could be positive or negative developments. And directly below, it says WB-8 is "In Process".

It's disappointing that there's nothing non-proprietary, e.g. the WB-7 peer review's conclusions redacted as needed, that's released.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:32 am

JohnFul wrote:I don't recall seeing this one before. Anyone know what that was about?

http://www.nmsbaprogram.org/LinkClick.a ... &tabid=202

Page 15.

J


Nice find.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
http://protonboron.com/
THE OPEN POLYWELL FUSION CONSORTIUM


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