To Treat the Dead - a paradigm change

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kurt9
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Postby kurt9 » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:57 am

This is kind of old (from 1988) but was written by a guy I knew well, Thomas Donaldson, who has a biochemistry background (he is in cryonic suspension at this time, having lost a battle with cancer).

http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/24thc ... icine.html

This is a speculative depiction of the kind of biotechnological capabilities that I think we will have in another 100-200 years. All of it is based on biology with no discussion, whatsoever, of nanites or any other kind of dry (mechanical) nanotechnology. Many (most?) of us in cryonics do not think that "dry" (mechanical) nanotechnology is even possible despite several papers by Ralph Merkle being posted on the Alcor website..

Bear in mind that this was written in 1988, before the discovery of stem cells. The kind of regeneration he describes is essentially what stem cell researchers are working to develop now.

BenTC
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Postby BenTC » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:21 am

kurt9 wrote:BTW, the snarky tone of your comments is uncalled for.

I took umbrage at "Duh!"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/DUH (#2)

My point was that this recent "hypothermia" research is of work that Alcor did in the mid 80's. [...] Indeed, we used this precise term, re-perfusion injury, to describe the injury mechanism when talking about it in the late 80's (Mike Darwin coined this term at the time). So, I stand by my ealier comment that Alcor actually pioneered this work in the mid 80's, even though they never submitted papers for peer-review (which is probably the reason why you never heard of it) (See my tag)

The vitrification process is optimized to preserve neurostructure, but causes damage to the rest of the body. [...] Some kind of regeneration based on stem-cell, synthetic biology, or bionanotechnology will be necessary to reconstruct and reanimate the patient.


I appreciate your association with first hand knowledge. However what is obvious to you doesn't seem to have made it out to the wider community. I've been a believer for a long time but most of the community think its a weird idea. I don't deny Alcor's pioneering role, but the pioneer is not always the person who makes it practical. Alcor never proved anything in humans. Their final step appears to be still theoretical. (I am asuming the intricities of human neurological outcomes can't necessarily be judged by animal experiments.) Alcor's work was not sufficient to affect general clinical practice. The focus of Becker's work is different. It is less ambitious but is having practical clinical outcomes. (See my tag line).

On a plane trip six months ago out of Sydney sitting next to a nurse, I mentioned this topic. She suprprised me by saying she knew of it and her hospital was undertaking trials based on it. I extrapolate the chances of that meeting to the wider practical effect Becker's research is having.
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

BenTC
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Postby BenTC » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:30 am

Skipjack wrote:
My ref about Becker induces 33 degreeC Mild Hypothemia for the purpose of preventing the self-destruction of cells after oxygen is reintroduced. Its specifically for heart attacks and I speculate also drowning, and not suitale for hemorrhaging patients.

It was 32 degress C in my case.
What can I say? It worked! And pretty well too. I had no noticeable brain damage (though I swear that I can not quite concentrate as well anymore as I used to) and my heart is actually doing quite well too. Muscles are fine. Two weeks after the attack I felt rather fit again. That even though I was in cardiac arrest and clinically dead.


Great to hear. Perhaps you could add you story here http://www.med.upenn.edu/resuscitation/Stories.shtml
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

kurt9
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Postby kurt9 » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:03 pm

BenTC wrote:
My point was that this recent "hypothermia" research is of work that Alcor did in the mid 80's. [...] Indeed, we used this precise term, re-perfusion injury, to describe the injury mechanism when talking about it in the late 80's (Mike Darwin coined this term at the time). So, I stand by my ealier comment that Alcor actually pioneered this work in the mid 80's, even though they never submitted papers for peer-review (which is probably the reason why you never heard of it) (See my tag)

The vitrification process is optimized to preserve neurostructure, but causes damage to the rest of the body. [...] Some kind of regeneration based on stem-cell, synthetic biology, or bionanotechnology will be necessary to reconstruct and reanimate the patient.


I appreciate your association with first hand knowledge. However what is obvious to you doesn't seem to have made it out to the wider community. I've been a believer for a long time but most of the community think its a weird idea. I don't deny Alcor's pioneering role, but the pioneer is not always the person who makes it practical. Alcor never proved anything in humans. Their final step appears to be still theoretical. (I am asuming the intricities of human neurological outcomes can't necessarily be judged by animal experiments.) Alcor's work was not sufficient to affect general clinical practice. The focus of Becker's work is different. It is less ambitious but is having practical clinical outcomes. (See my tag line).

On a plane trip six months ago out of Sydney sitting next to a nurse, I mentioned this topic. She surprised me by saying she knew of it and her hospital was undertaking trials based on it. I extrapolate the chances of that meeting to the wider practical effect Becker's research is having.


Definitely Alcor's objective and Becker's focus are completely different. Mike Darwin and Steve Harris made some effort to commercialize the work they did at Alcor to the larger medical community. Some of their work has been adapted by the medical community for low-temperature surgery. It does not surprise me that the medical community is eager to utilize this hibernation technology, because it make long-duration surgical procedures far easier to perform.

The most common long-duration medical procedure performed in the U.S. is bypass surgery. Traditionally, the patient is put on a heart-lung machine while the surgery is performed. It is believed that the brain damage that results from bypass surgery (bypass surgery almost always reduces patient IQ by around 15 points - this is real brain damage) is due to the heart-lung machine. I do not believe this. However, most of the medical community does and as such, they are very eager to utilize a technology to cool the patient to near zero C such as to eliminate the need for the heart-lung machine.

I expect all hospitals and clinics that do bypass surgery to utilize this technology within 5 years. Of course, it is much better to chelate with EDTA than to under go bypass surgery. However, the FDA and AMA do not recognize EDTA chelation as effective. The reason is economics. Bypass surgery cost $100k, which is paid by insurance. EDTA chelation typically runs around $3k, which is usually not paid by insurance. Since EDTA chelation actually works in 75% of the cases, the medical industry would loose a considerable income stream if EDTA chelation become popular. Since bypass surgery is one of the most common surgeries performed in the U.S., this presents a significant percentage of the income revenue for the MD's, clinics, and hospitals. They are loath to loose this income stream. Don't be surprised. The medical field and its players are just as greedy, corrupt, and evil as any other private industry or government-funded milieu (e.g. NASA, Tokamak fusion, climate research, etc.).

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:27 pm

kurt9,

A lot of this sort of thing was sorted in the electrical industry with UL which was designed to lower insurance losses.

If only we had a medical UL instead of the FDA.

So my question is: why aren't insurance companies pumping for lower cost therapies?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
http://protonboron.com/
THE OPEN POLYWELL FUSION CONSORTIUM

kurt9
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Postby kurt9 » Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:19 pm

MSimon wrote:kurt9,

A lot of this sort of thing was sorted in the electrical industry with UL which was designed to lower insurance losses.

If only we had a medical UL instead of the FDA.

So my question is: why aren't insurance companies pumping for lower cost therapies?


I think the recent supreme court ruling on free speech will help to end FDA tyranny.

One would think that the insurance companies would be interested in lower cost therapies. One would also think that an effective anti-aging therapy would be considered a form of preventive medicine. Why the industry is slow to respond to this kind of thinking is not clear to me.

Aubrey de Grey thinks its due to cultural inertia, which we calls the "pro-aging" trance. I think its due to medical bureaucracy and that the industry itself does not favor such an approach because it will lead to radical downsizing. Nothing will down size the medical industry more than an effective cure for aging. Curing aging will do to the medical industry what the mp3 downloads are doing to the music industry.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:37 am

kurt9 wrote:
MSimon wrote:kurt9,

A lot of this sort of thing was sorted in the electrical industry with UL which was designed to lower insurance losses.

If only we had a medical UL instead of the FDA.

So my question is: why aren't insurance companies pumping for lower cost therapies?


I think the recent supreme court ruling on free speech will help to end FDA tyranny.

One would think that the insurance companies would be interested in lower cost therapies. One would also think that an effective anti-aging therapy would be considered a form of preventive medicine. Why the industry is slow to respond to this kind of thinking is not clear to me.

Aubrey de Grey thinks its due to cultural inertia, which we calls the "pro-aging" trance. I think its due to medical bureaucracy and that the industry itself does not favor such an approach because it will lead to radical downsizing. Nothing will down size the medical industry more than an effective cure for aging. Curing aging will do to the medical industry what the mp3 downloads are doing to the music industry.


Death does have its advantages. In science people steeped in old ideas generally do not change them. They die off and the kids who learned the new stuff take over.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
http://protonboron.com/
THE OPEN POLYWELL FUSION CONSORTIUM

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:59 am

kurt9,

I excerpted some of your remarks and expanded on my comments here:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... peech.html
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
http://protonboron.com/
THE OPEN POLYWELL FUSION CONSORTIUM

kurt9
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Postby kurt9 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:35 am

MSimon wrote:
kurt9 wrote:
I think the recent supreme court ruling on free speech will help to end FDA tyranny.

One would think that the insurance companies would be interested in lower cost therapies. One would also think that an effective anti-aging therapy would be considered a form of preventive medicine. Why the industry is slow to respond to this kind of thinking is not clear to me.

Aubrey de Grey thinks its due to cultural inertia, which we calls the "pro-aging" trance. I think its due to medical bureaucracy and that the industry itself does not favor such an approach because it will lead to radical downsizing. Nothing will down size the medical industry more than an effective cure for aging. Curing aging will do to the medical industry what the mp3 downloads are doing to the music industry.


Death does have its advantages. In science people steeped in old ideas generally do not change them. They die off and the kids who learned the new stuff take over.


This is called Plank's other constant, which is often cited as being 20 years or so.

However, this is more an indictment of bureaucratically driven, government funded big science than it is of radical life extension itself. A growing open free market economy offers lots of opportunity for young people to overthrow an technology or industrial establishment. After all, this is what the information revolution has been about for the past 20 years. It is government regulation and bureaucracy that prevents the same thing from happening in bio-medicine. It is the capital-intensiveness as well as the government bureaucracy that has inhibited innovation in physics.

Also, it is the aging process itself, as well as the fear of it, that drives people to become more inward-oriented and conservative over time.

kurt9
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Postby kurt9 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:36 am

MSimon wrote:kurt9,

I excerpted some of your remarks and expanded on my comments here:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/201 ... peech.html


That's fine. Thanks for letting me know.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:34 pm

Also, it is the aging process itself, as well as the fear of it, that drives people to become more inward-oriented and conservative over time.


I can't speak for others but death does not frighten me.

Conservatism comes of seeing so many of my hare brained ideas fail. It takes a while to learn that in your bones.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
http://protonboron.com/
THE OPEN POLYWELL FUSION CONSORTIUM

kurt9
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Postby kurt9 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:27 pm

MSimon wrote:
Also, it is the aging process itself, as well as the fear of it, that drives people to become more inward-oriented and conservative over time.


I can't speak for others but death does not frighten me.

Conservatism comes of seeing so many of my hare brained ideas fail. It takes a while to learn that in your bones.


I like freedom and complete openness. I like having an unlimited open personal future. That's why I'm into radical life extension.

I was at the core of the milieu described in Ed Rigis's book "Great Mambo Chicken". I knew 80% of the people and was involved in all of the organizations that Ed describes in this book. It is reasonable to say that my cohorts and myself were the creators of the entire transhumanist movement. I was into all of this when I was 23 years old. This is in addition to the adult paradise that SoCal was at the time. I went from the beach to the cryonics lab to the night clubs. It was a very heady time for. The headrush that I experienced from this headyness, I value this more than anything else in life and will do anything to make such a permanent condition of my life.

My desire for radical life extension is the desire I feel to the core of my being. This desire transcends all other desires and considerations. I feel as strongly (if not more) today as I did in the summers of '86-88.

BTW, I've never liked the term "conservative". In fact, I despise this term.

I am a proponent of free-markets, creative human achievement, innovation, free-thinking, and entrepreneurship. I believe in horizontal networking relationships rather than vertical hierarchical ones. Above all, I believe in self-empowerment.

Viewed within the proper context of world history, these are not conservative values, but fundamentally radical ones. These are the products of the Renaissance and Enlightenment, which is the only real revolution in human history because it is the only intellectual revolution in human history. Unfortunately, this revolution is incomplete.

As a philosophical movement, I view transhumanism and the logical extension of the Renaissance and Enlightenment.

KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:53 pm

kurt9 wrote: I think the recent supreme court ruling on free speech will help to end FDA tyranny.

One would think that the insurance companies would be interested in lower cost therapies. One would also think that an effective anti-aging therapy would be considered a form of preventive medicine. Why the industry is slow to respond to this kind of thinking is not clear to me.
They are slow because THEY ARE NOT INSURANCE COMPANIES!!! Until you realize that they are "pre-paid medical plans" you will continually be puzzled. They make their money by SPENDING your med payments. They get a percentage of what they spend, hence they spend a LOT. Turn them into insurance companies, or eliminate the percentage limitations, and your med payments cost will go down. We MAY even get some REAL health maintenance organizations that will search for real, health producing treatments rather than symptom maintenance organizations that sell pills, like we have now.

tombo
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Postby tombo » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:29 pm

So my question is: why aren't insurance companies pumping for lower cost therapies?

With higher costs they can justify higher rates and management's [ie those who choose these kinds of policies] percent of company earnings is a higher amount. Simple capitalism at work.
Too bad so few top level decision makers seem to remember the "enlightened" part of "enlightened self interest".
Adam Smith used that word for a reason. It was the enlightenment after all.
He also said that businessmen will use any meeting to try to figure out ways to limit trade and raise their prices.

I dislike those labels too.
Liberal and Conservative are labels used by two power groups to gain and hold power and support.
But, I think most (thinking) people hold values and opinions from both camps.
The actions of those who get into power in each of those camps are not anywhere near what I think of when I think of liberal or conservative actions.

I dream of a political phase change. A recrystallization with the dividing lines redrawn at a totally different angle. Not left vs right but, say, top vs bottom, or individual liberty vs safety.
Actually it would be a surface in n-dimensional opinions/values space.
Last edited by tombo on Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-Tom Boydston-
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn’t be called research, would it?" ~Albert Einstein

tombo
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Postby tombo » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:29 pm

The most common long-duration medical procedure performed in the U.S. is bypass surgery. Traditionally, the patient is put on a heart-lung machine while the surgery is performed. It is believed that the brain damage that results from bypass surgery (bypass surgery almost always reduces patient IQ by around 15 points - this is real brain damage) is due to the heart-lung machine. I do not believe this. However, most of the medical community does and as such, they are very eager to utilize a technology to cool the patient to near zero C such as to eliminate the need for the heart-lung machine.

An office mate of mine had a heart attack maybe 10 years ago. They were going to do bypass surgery on him. He has a niece who is a Radiation Medicine Specialist MD surgeon told him "DON'T let them do it. I'll be right there." She flew in from the east coast on the next plane with her equipment.
The treatment she used was a beta emitter on an endoscope. It melts and evacuates the clots. He was back at work in a few days. They had him on some kind of medicine to lower is temperature for a few weeks to reduce radiation damage. His handshake was shockingly cold.
He did not mention or display any cognitive decline after he recovered.
-Tom Boydston-

"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn’t be called research, would it?" ~Albert Einstein


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