Talk-Polywell.org

a discussion forum for Polywell fusion
It is currently Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:25 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 65 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:36 am
Posts: 1159
Location: Eastern Iowa
Looks like the recovery and reinvestment money is coming through.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=fc9fd44171017393510d46e2f8154296&tab=core&_cview=0&cck=1&au=&ck=

_________________
Aero


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Posts: 5906
Location: OlyPen WA
This has been discussed in some detail in other topics.

When there is additional info under the "Original Synopsis" in the left hand column, get back to us. Until then, this is old news.

Thanks for watching though! :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:36 am
Posts: 1159
Location: Eastern Iowa
Kiteman - I believe you spoke too soon. Yes, we have speculated on WB8 for sometime. But take a look at the Contract Line Items (CDRL), and read the statement of work. That is all new information.

This solicitation presents the best picture of the goals and work to be done that we have seen to date. I suggest following the links to see what the navy is actually signing off on. For example, I found this paragraph from the statement of work to be informative:

Quote:
3.1.2 The design shall use circular coils around each main face cusp axis. The device shall use emitter electron gun
arrays and an ion beam drive. The machine will be operated in magnetic fields with pulsed currents. WB8 shall be
operated at a magnetic field strength of approximately 0.8 Tesla, which represents an increase of 8 times the
magnetic field strength of previous WB machines. Improvements over previous WB machines in WB confinement,
ion energy and fusion reactivity are expected as a result of these changes to WB machine design.

_________________
Aero


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:36 am
Posts: 1159
Location: Eastern Iowa
Let me make it a little easier for us to get on with the interesting discussions by posting the documents linked in the solicitation. But don't assume that I have found everything of interest, so someone else should follow the links in case I have missed something. It wouldn't be the first time.

Statement of work (51 pages, good stuff) - https://www.neco.navy.mil/upload/N68936/N6893609R0044RFP_09-R-0044.pdf

Contract Data Line Items (3 pages I don't understand) -https://www.neco.navy.mil/upload/N68936/N6893609R0044Attachment_1_-_CDRLS.pdf

Inventory list (13 pages of good stuff) - https://www.neco.navy.mil/upload/N68936/N6893609R0044Attachment_2_-_Inventory_List.pdf

_________________
Aero


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:36 am
Posts: 1159
Location: Eastern Iowa
Duplicate Post.

_________________
Aero


Last edited by Aero on Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:00 pm
Posts: 3161
Quote:
3.1.2 The design shall use circular coils around each main face cusp axis. The device shall use emitter electron gun
arrays and an ion beam drive. The machine will be operated in magnetic fields with pulsed currents. WB8 shall be
operated at a magnetic field strength of approximately 0.8 Tesla, which represents an increase of 8 times the
magnetic field strength of previous WB machines. Improvements over previous WB machines in WB confinement,
ion energy and fusion reactivity are expected as a result of these changes to WB machine design.
Sounds very much like "Improvements over previous WB machines...are expected [..or else...forget any more money!!]"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Posts: 13792
Location: Rockford, Illinois
chrismb wrote:
Quote:
3.1.2 The design shall use circular coils around each main face cusp axis. The device shall use emitter electron gun
arrays and an ion beam drive. The machine will be operated in magnetic fields with pulsed currents. WB8 shall be
operated at a magnetic field strength of approximately 0.8 Tesla, which represents an increase of 8 times the
magnetic field strength of previous WB machines. Improvements over previous WB machines in WB confinement,
ion energy and fusion reactivity are expected as a result of these changes to WB machine design.
Sounds very much like "Improvements over previous WB machines...are expected [..or else...forget any more money!!]"


Good idea. If they don't come within experimental error explanations will be required. Why is it worse than expected? Or more optimistically why is it better?

An 8X increase in field strength implies a 64 X increase in power. Unless the coils are cooled by LN2 or better yet LHe. With LHe at 20K and Cu it might be possible to get the increased current with no increase in power (except for the batteries and external wiring).

One thing liquid cooled coils give you is faster cycle times. Maybe 6 or 10 shots an hour vs 1.

If they are burning D-D and the device scales an 8X B field implies a neutron rate 4,000 times the WB-7.

That might be enough to do neutron tomography with enough shots.

_________________
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Posts: 13792
Location: Rockford, Illinois
https://www.neco.navy.mil/upload/N68936 ... _CDRLS.pdf

This is a list of paperwork rqmts and delivery schedules. Monthly progress reports are required.

Conceptual dwgs and models. Scientific papers. - as required.

_________________
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:29 am
Posts: 284
Location: Chicago
MSimon wrote:
An 8X increase in field strength implies a 64 X increase in power.


4096 X increase in power? B^4*R^3?

Sorry. Now I saw the rest of your post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:05 pm
Posts: 5906
Location: OlyPen WA
Aero wrote:
Kiteman - I believe you spoke too soon. Yes, we have speculated on WB8 for sometime. But take a look at the Contract Line Items (CDRL), and read the statement of work. That is all new information.
How interesting! When I looked at it this AM when I first read your post there was nothing but the original synopsis. Now there is the change link that leads to all sorts of interesting things. Aero, I do own you an apology. Please consider this your apology ;)

Boy the net is weird!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 3:31 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Huntsville, AL
Quote:
3.2.1 Enhanced Ion Drive with PB11 (proton/boron 11): Based on the results of WB8 testing, and the availability
of government funds the contractor shall develop a WB machine (WB8.1) which incorporates the knowledge and
improvements gained in WB8. It is expected that higher ion drive capabilities will be added, and that a “PB11”
reaction will be demonstrated.


Oooh, they're going for the whole enchilada!

_________________
Perrin Ehlinger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Posts: 13792
Location: Rockford, Illinois
My take:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/200 ... truck.html

good work guys!!!!!!!!!!

_________________
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:36 am
Posts: 1159
Location: Eastern Iowa
Kiteman - You don't really owe an apology to me. But I'll accept it anyway. But the links were there when I first posted and much different when I went back the second time (same stuff, different structure) so maybe you caught them during an update, who knows what the status was when you first checked.

I found the statement of work (SOW) quite interesting, especially when they talk of doing pb11 fusion with WB8.1 . Also about delivering specifications for a new device, WB9, to be a 100 MW machine if all goes well with the work on WB8 and WB8.1. The SOW also talks about computer simulations and improved understanding of scaling, to be presented to a big review within 40 days of end of contract. (Before? After?) Good stuff.

_________________
Aero


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Posts: 13792
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Aero wrote:
Kiteman - You don't really owe an apology to me. But I'll accept it anyway. But the links were there when I first posted and much different when I went back the second time (same stuff, different structure) so maybe you caught them during an update, who knows what the status was when you first checked.

I found the statement of work (SOW) quite interesting, especially when they talk of doing pb11 fusion with WB8.1 . Also about delivering specifications for a new device, WB9, to be a 100 MW machine if all goes well with the work on WB8 and WB8.1. The SOW also talks about computer simulations and improved understanding of scaling, to be presented to a big review within 40 days of end of contract. (Before? After?) Good stuff.


Shouldn't that be 100 milliwatts?

_________________
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:37 pm
Posts: 13792
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Scupperer wrote:
Quote:
3.2.1 Enhanced Ion Drive with PB11 (proton/boron 11): Based on the results of WB8 testing, and the availability
of government funds the contractor shall develop a WB machine (WB8.1) which incorporates the knowledge and
improvements gained in WB8. It is expected that higher ion drive capabilities will be added, and that a “PB11”
reaction will be demonstrated.


Oooh, they're going for the whole enchilada!


Which says that things are going well indeed. D-D must be a piece of cake. Or what ever they are using to simulate it (He4?)

_________________
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 65 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group