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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:32 am 
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http://blanksslate.blogspot.com/2013/01 ... ainst.html

and closes with:

In no other arena of public policy, save perhaps drug policy, would such inefficacy be so proudly touted as meaningful. And perhaps most frustrating, there is going to be so much self-righteous ink spilled all over this absolutely worthless legislation that, even if passed, will have no meaningful effect on gun violence. What a miserable waste of time and energy is on the immediate horizon.

Welcome to D.C.'s latest dog and pony show.

====

I am most amused.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:50 am 
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MSimon wrote:
http://blanksslate.blogspot.com/2013/01/how-mother-jones-makes-my-case-against.html

and closes with:

In no other arena of public policy, save perhaps drug policy, would such inefficacy be so proudly touted as meaningful. And perhaps most frustrating, there is going to be so much self-righteous ink spilled all over this absolutely worthless legislation that, even if passed, will have no meaningful effect on gun violence. What a miserable waste of time and energy is on the immediate horizon.

Welcome to D.C.'s latest dog and pony show.

====


I am most amused.



It is a sacrament of Libertarian faith that the drug war has no beneficial effect whatsoever. A very significant example in history that proves this belief false is studiously ignored.


I am amused as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:31 am 
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Diogenes wrote:
MSimon wrote:
http://blanksslate.blogspot.com/2013/01/how-mother-jones-makes-my-case-against.html

and closes with:

In no other arena of public policy, save perhaps drug policy, would such inefficacy be so proudly touted as meaningful. And perhaps most frustrating, there is going to be so much self-righteous ink spilled all over this absolutely worthless legislation that, even if passed, will have no meaningful effect on gun violence. What a miserable waste of time and energy is on the immediate horizon.

Welcome to D.C.'s latest dog and pony show.

====


I am most amused.


It is a sacrament of Libertarian faith that the drug war has no beneficial effect whatsoever. A very significant example in history that proves this belief false is studiously ignored.

I am amused as well.


Well lets talk the danger of opiates. Let us suppose we are as susceptible as the Chinese. Every year we have a significant fraction of our population exposed to opiates as part of medical practice.

I can't find any stats on the number - I have looked - but it can't be under 1%. Cumulatively over a 20 year period it ought to run to at least 5% exposed.

And yet - with prohibition or without the opiate using population in America has stayed stuck at 1.3%. Why?

Or another example - 45% of Viet Nam vets were exposed to opium in country. Yet only 1% remained users in the US. Can you explain that? I can tell you it surprised those in authority who believe that drugs cause addiction.

Or let me give a personal anecdote. When I was in the Navy I was given morphine post surgery. And it was a totally dreamy experience. And yet despite living in places where opiates are not difficult to get I did not "chase the dragon". Why? Well I had better things to do. And of course once my surgical wounds healed I was not in pain.

If drugs cause addiction where are the bodies?

If drugs do not cause addiction then fighting drugs is a total waste. Or worse.

So what do I think causes addiction - hard conditions. You remove those conditions and all you have left are people with long term PTSD. The most severe cases use opiates or alcohol to excess. Many choose pot and some prefer a few drinks. Of course the alcoholics are identified with a lot of collateral damage. Carnage on the highways mostly. Despite that alcohol prohibition is not coming back.

Fortunately the cohort with your faith is dying off. Reason will be applied to the question (you have admitted to applying emotionalism to move people in your direction - evidently it doesn't work the way it used to) and as that happens you will be reduced to the status of an alcohol prohibitionists - quaint, amusing, totally discredited, an object of derision in less polite circles.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:05 am 
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It's psychological. Banning some guns makes those who promoted it "feel better", and gives them a sense that they "did something". It's a sugar pill, that's all.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:14 am 
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kcdodd wrote:
It's psychological. Banning some guns makes those who promoted it "feel better", and gives them a sense that they "did something". It's a sugar pill, that's all.


Irony of ironies - the sugar pills of the right and left are twisted mirror images of each other.

One side argues that banning "xxx" substance will eliminate all the negatives of that substance. The other side argues it will multiply them. The other side is correct.

We have a one party state. Two factions.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:21 pm 
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Quote:
Or another example - 45% of Viet Nam vets were exposed to opium in country. Yet only 1% remained users in the US. Can you explain that? I can tell you it surprised those in authority who believe that drugs cause addiction.

Or let me give a personal anecdote. When I was in the Navy I was given morphine post surgery. And it was a totally dreamy experience. And yet despite living in places where opiates are not difficult to get I did not "chase the dragon". Why? Well I had better things to do. And of course once my surgical wounds healed I was not in pain.


Great Argument! Thanks for more evidence that professional administration by medical experts prevents the potential rampant addiction by unsupervised use. Further proof that control does work.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:40 pm 
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MSimon wrote:
If drugs cause addiction where are the bodies?

If drugs do not cause addiction then fighting drugs is a total waste. Or worse.

So what do I think causes addiction - hard conditions. You remove those conditions and all you have left are people with long term PTSD. The most severe cases use opiates or alcohol to excess. Many choose pot and some prefer a few drinks. Of course the alcoholics are identified with a lot of collateral damage.
.

Do really expect be to believe that the majority of Drug addiction is not a physical construct but an emotional one????? And removing poverty cure that portion of the problem. Tell that to Charlie Sheen or Keith ledger; the list goes on to many to measure . Lunacy Simon just Lunacy... The body's are in the morgues .


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:36 pm 
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ladajo wrote:
Quote:
Or another example - 45% of Viet Nam vets were exposed to opium in country. Yet only 1% remained users in the US. Can you explain that? I can tell you it surprised those in authority who believe that drugs cause addiction.

Or let me give a personal anecdote. When I was in the Navy I was given morphine post surgery. And it was a totally dreamy experience. And yet despite living in places where opiates are not difficult to get I did not "chase the dragon". Why? Well I had better things to do. And of course once my surgical wounds healed I was not in pain.


Great Argument! Thanks for more evidence that professional administration by medical experts prevents the potential rampant addiction by unsupervised use. Further proof that control does work.
Actually, it is more a demonstration the a lack of continuing pain or high stress eliminates the perceived need for the drugs.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:54 pm 
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Ok, but the fundamental point is the majority of soldiers in Vietnam that were "exposed" opium was via morphine. This was administered for the most part under guidance and control of medically trained personel, with the intent to limit dosages in order to prevent addiction. Having had a number of friends and family in the hospital and also watching how careful they are when using opiates for pain control, further reinforces my observation and opinion.
You say it is pain based. Sure. Wound = Pain. Pain management technique = morphine. Morphine was not normally administered for 'mental' pain.
Simon misrepresents once again, and makes a hand wavy statement that 45% of soldiers survived exposure without addiction. I point out that this was a function of them being exposed in under rules designed to prevent addiction. Ie. "control". So it should follow that if morphine had be made completely and freely available to all soldiers, with no rules and controls, that addiction rates would have been much higher, as seen in other population groups where this is the case.
Your point doesn't make much sense in the bigger argument.

Of course I have yet to talk about his "45%" claimed exposure rate.
Let's see...3.4 million (ish) total deployed forces. 2.6 million (ish) on the ground in Vietnam. 300K (ish) total wounded, 50K (ish) killed. Of the 300K wounded, about half required hospital care. So even if you say that every wounded or killed troop got morphine (not the case), that still only makes for 350K out of 3.4 million.
So, I have to wonder with some gravity how Simon is justifying his hand waved, and more than likely misrepresented "45% exposure".

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:56 pm 
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ladajo wrote:
Quote:
Or another example - 45% of Viet Nam vets were exposed to opium in country. Yet only 1% remained users in the US. Can you explain that? I can tell you it surprised those in authority who believe that drugs cause addiction.

Or let me give a personal anecdote. When I was in the Navy I was given morphine post surgery. And it was a totally dreamy experience. And yet despite living in places where opiates are not difficult to get I did not "chase the dragon". Why? Well I had better things to do. And of course once my surgical wounds healed I was not in pain.


Great Argument! Thanks for more evidence that professional administration by medical experts prevents the potential rampant addiction by unsupervised use. Further proof that control does work.


Well if prohibition works why hasn't the number of addicts changed in over 100 years? That would be since before the start of prohibition.

You are not thinking rationally. Drugs do that to people.

Before prohibition 1.3% users. After prohibition 1.3% users.

What are we getting for our money? A well funded criminal class for one. So there is that. It is a wonder. Republicans favoring price supports for criminals.

And if prohibition works do you oppose gun prohibition? After all it works. According to you. And you believe in prohibition despite evidence to the contrary. Faith is a wonderful thing. People will give up reason for it. Right. Left. Makes no difference. Each side just picks the area where it will abandon reason.

As I said. The two parties are mirror images of each other. Each believes their prohibition is rational and the other party's prohibition is stupid.

I am amused.

I have come to the conclusion that Substance Prohibition is stupid. Makes no difference what the substance. Alcohol. Guns. Drugs. I have the good fortune to live in a country and an in an era where my fellow countrymen are coming to a similar conclusion. Praise the Maker.

I feel a 1932 coming on. Too funny. Milton Friedman called Prohibition socialism for criminals. And to think the little socialism of prohibition will empower the bigger socialism of the left. Just as it did in 1932. Proof positive that very few learn from history. People will pick the big socialism if the party promoting it will rid them of the little socialism. Humans are interesting. Tragic characters if you will. The defects are inexorable. Pity.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:34 pm 
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ladajo wrote:
Ok, but the fundamental point is the majority of soldiers in Vietnam that were "exposed" opium was via morphine. This was administered for the most part under guidance and control of medically trained personel, with the intent to limit dosages in order to prevent addiction. Having had a number of friends and family in the hospital and also watching how careful they are when using opiates for pain control, further reinforces my observation and opinion.
You say it is pain based. Sure. Wound = Pain. Pain management technique = morphine. Morphine was not normally administered for 'mental' pain.
Simon misrepresents once again, and makes a hand wavy statement that 45% of soldiers survived exposure without addiction. I point out that this was a function of them being exposed in under rules designed to prevent addiction. Ie. "control". So it should follow that if morphine had be made completely and freely available to all soldiers, with no rules and controls, that addiction rates would have been much higher, as seen in other population groups where this is the case.
Your point doesn't make much sense in the bigger argument.

Of course I have yet to talk about his "45%" claimed exposure rate.
Let's see...3.4 million (ish) total deployed forces. 2.6 million (ish) on the ground in Vietnam. 300K (ish) total wounded, 50K (ish) killed. Of the 300K wounded, about half required hospital care. So even if you say that every wounded or killed troop got morphine (not the case), that still only makes for 350K out of 3.4 million.
So, I have to wonder with some gravity how Simon is justifying his hand waved, and more than likely misrepresented "45% exposure".


You need to get your facts correct. illegal opiates were widely used and available in Viet Nam.

Read - McCoy "The Politics of Heroin" before you start spouting your revisionist history. You could also look up "Nixon methadone Viet Nam" for more information.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. But making up facts? That is so unlike you. Or maybe I just didn't know you.

Assuming you haven't looked I will leave some links:

http://druglibrary.eu/library/books/McCoy/mccoy.pdf

http://www.library.vanderbilt.edu/centr ... ietnam.htm

http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 ... lee-robins

http://www.gradesaver.com/the-things-th ... /section9/


In southeast Asia, the governments of most countries and many colonial officials had been involved in the opium trade for a very long time. The Vietnam War and CIA operations in Laos had the unintended consequence of first opening up many areas of Southeast Asia to modern transportation and then presenting a ready-made market for the drug among the U.S. military personnel stationed in the region.

The turning point came in 1970-71 when the first high-grade heroin laboratories opened in the Golden Triangle. Prior to this, the chemical skills for refinement had existed only in Europe. This gave the opium producers control over the creation of the final product. The hundreds of thousands of American servicemen in Vietnam provided a perfect market for the heroin producers, and heroin use among soldiers rapidly increased. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 543AAiOpwQ

===

Back in 1971, Robert Steele from Connecticut and Morgan Murphy from Illinois visited Vietnam in their capacity as United States congressman. They returned with some unexpected news, estimating that about 15 percent of the US troops serving in Vietnam were living with an active heroin addiction. President Nixon responded by creating The Special Action Office of Drug Abuse Prevention and authorized studies to follow these addicted military members when they returned home to determine how they fared in treatment and beyond.

http://www.michaelshouse.com/blog/what- ... addiction/

====

Behind the scenes, the CIA, along with Pakistan’s ISI, were secretly funding Afghanistan’s mujahideen to fight their Russian foes. Prior to this war, opium production in Afghanistan was minimal. But according to historian Alfred McCoy, an expert on the subject, a shift in focus took place. “Within two years of the onslaught of the CIA operation in Afghanistan, the Pakistan-Afghanistan borderlands became the world’s top heroin producer.”

Soon, as Professor Michel Chossudovsky notes, “CIA assets again controlled the heroin trade. As the mujahideen guerrillas seized territory inside Afghanistan, they ordered peasants to plant poppies as a revolutionary tax. Across the border in Pakistan, Afghan leaders and local syndicates under the protection of Pakistan intelligence operated hundreds of heroin laboratories.”

Eventually, the Soviet Union was defeated (their version of Vietnam), and ultimately lost the Cold War. The aftermath, however, proved to be an entirely new can of worms. During his research, McCoy discovered that “the CIA supported various Afghan drug lords, for instance Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. The CIA did not handle heroin, but it did provide its drug lord allies with transport, arms, and political protection.”

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/c ... n_158.html

===

Between May and September 1972, 943 men who had returned to the United States from Vietnam in September 1971 as Army enlisted men were sought for interview and collection of urine specimens. Of these men, 470 represented the general population of Army enlisted men returning at that time; 495 represented those whose urines had been positive for opiates at time of departure from Vietnam. At interview 8–12 months after their return, 83% were civilians and 17% still in service. Nine hundred were personally interviewed and urine specimens collected for 876. Almost half of the “general” sample tried heroin or opium while in Vietnam and one-fifth developed physical or psychological dependence. In the 8- to 12-month period since their return, about 10% had some experience with opiates, but less than 1% had shown signs of opiate dependence.

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/99/4/235.short

=========

Chiang Kai-shek and the Drug Warlords of the Golden Triangle
http://www.chiangraitimes.com/news/4771.html

Vietnam was in the Golden Triangle - Chiang was a favorite of the US in the war against Mao and subsequently Chiang's landing in Taiwan.

==========

Following their defeat in the Chinese civil war in the late 1940s, thousands of Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalist Chinese troops retreated from southern China into the Shan States of Myanmar


(then known as Burma) and later into northern Thailand. There, they established bases from which they attempted to re-take China from the Mao Zedong-led communists.

This "secret" army was supported by the Republic of China, which had retreated to the island of Taiwan, as well as the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Along with covert operations in Tibet, it was the first of other secret and not-so-secret CIA-orchestrated wars in Cuba, Nicaragua, Angola and Afghanistan.

and:

Richard Gibson, a now retired former US Consul General in Chiang Mai, has written the first complete account of this secret war. Assisted by Wenhua Chen, a former Chinese translator at the United Nations, Gibson went through a trove of documents in Chinese to piece together this groundbreaking volume.

The extensive research means that the book contains far more detailed information about this covert operation than, for instance, Alfred McCoy's classic The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia and Catherine Lamour's excellent Enquete sur une Armee Secrete, which is available only in French.

The Secret Army is more than a history of a largely forgotten war. The book explains the origin of the chaos and anarchy that made it possible for the Golden Triangle drug trade to take root and flourish to this day. It also shows that opium has always been an integral part of insurgency, as well as counter-insurgency, in one of Southeast Asia's most volatile regions. Burton Levin, a former US ambassador to Myanmar, writes in an endorsement of the book: "We owe our thanks to Mr Gibson for reminding us of yet another instance where covert action brought us more grief than relief."

Ironically, the Nationalist Chinese involvement in the opium and its derivative heroin trades reached its height during the Indochina war in the early 1970s, when the most lucrative local market for the drugs was among US troops stationed in Vietnam. This, of course, was not appreciated but nevertheless tolerated as long as they served Thailand's and America's security interests. That's because they remained sources for crucial intelligence in areas where the Thais and Americans had little or no direct access. This information flow was especially important precisely during the Indochina war and in the fight against the CPT.

When the US GIs returned home, the narcotics problem shifted from army barracks and camps in South Vietnam to poor communities and even middle-class suburbs in the United States. The public became alarmed and Washington started taking measures aimed at solving the narcotics problem through its so-called "war on drugs". Conveniently forgotten was that the flow of narcotics was a direct outcome of the US-supported secret war in the Golden Triangle.

Revelations of a secret war
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_ ... 9Ae02.html

=========

I finally found a site that reviews the history of how the US got into the business of running drugs: The Takao Club.

Now, it’s important to understand that the US was not the first. The British beat us into the state-driven drug trade by a couple of centuries in the Opium Wars. But drug running has become a central part of US military action. The roots of US involvement are in World War II. Alfred McCoy gives a comprehensive history of that involvement through the mid-70s. In the case of Luciano, drug running was incidental; Luciano was clearly a bad guy (McCoy adds the fascinating point that Patton’s sweep through Sicily was facilitated by the Mafia). In Southeast Asia, drug running became part of policy.

http://phoenixwoman.wordpress.com/2011/ ... ut-patton/

================

Well that is enough education for you today. If you take advantage of it. Anyway read McCoy. It is a book. It will take time. You might learn some history.

There is no point in making up shite when discussing this subject with me. I have actually studied it. You might try it as well. As you admonish others on different subjects.

What is amusing is that the right is as ignorant of drugs as the left is of guns. The parties as I said are mirror images.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:45 pm 
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Let me reiterate -

If you haven't read McCoy "The Politics of Heroin" you know nothing about the subject of the modern heroin trade. That should be the core basis of your research.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:23 pm 
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If you want to learn more about the transport you might want to look up "Air America" . A private little airline devoted to drugs and arms transport.

It was made into a semi fictional movie with Mel Gibson acting.

A clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFoIcuscEts
Dubbed in Italian -Gimme Shelter is the sound track.

This is a longer one featuring Alfred McCoy at the beginning - an investigative report:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvRhUZnc7F0

The gimme shelter clip in Engilsh about 4 minutes in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grk9_6_isY0

An 82nd guy speaks:
http://youtu.be/V0jlBB9t3Ao

I flew Flying Tigers Airline to the Philippines (stop in Tokyo for refueling - we weren't allowed out of the plane) in order to meed my ship cruising Yankee Station. How ironic.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:49 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grk9_6_isY0

Reminds me of Danang. I was about 1500 yards off shore. On deck. The arty was steady. I pitied the poor SOBs on either end of that. Glad I was aboard ship. I couldn't see anything but jungle. But I could hear. A round of the heavies about every two or three seconds. I can still hear it on the 4th.

I had no idea what our ship's mission was there. No one ever said.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:53 pm 
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A CIA agent speaks about the heroin trade:

http://youtu.be/gFPLddpgVDQ

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