Don't Biatch Conservatives

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GIThruster
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

Well clearly you must be watching MSNBC or some other propaganda machine because the numbers you're throwing around are larger than the entire DOD budget and most of the DOD's budget is not the result of war. The last figures I saw from GAO were that the US spends less than $200B/year on all the wars we fight at once. If you want to go digging for the real numbers yourself, you will find them here:

http://comptroller.defense.gov/defbudge ... w_Book.pdf

but just saying, look at page 1-1 and obviously, the entire DOD budget is less than $1T. If you look at page 2-1, you'll see the last decade of "Overseas Contingency Operations" which is roughly what it costs to fight a war. You'll see at no time has this ever exceeded $200B.

Manipulating all the medical costs in the country is going to cost far more than fighting 3 wars at a time. And honestly, this is how socialists sell their wares--they lie about the costs. You don't honestly think the vast majorities in Ireland, and Greece and Spain and Portugal and Italy all thought their health care systems would bankrupt their countries when they enacted them, do you?
Last edited by GIThruster on Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

palladin9479
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:22 am

Post by palladin9479 »

Ok this is something I don't get, seriously.

The coverage mandate wasn't a liberal idea. It was a conservative demand, a republican idea. They wouldn't even negotiate until it was included, and thus the democrats compromised and included it.

So .... anyone spewing hateraid about a $300~$675 USD a year "tax" on uninsured (free loaders they were called by the GOP I believe) is actually hating on the GOP and not Obama / liberals.

Or has the party line / theology so blinded people that they can't keep their history straight.

GIThruster
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

I can't take anyone seriously who uses the language of "hate". You need to go argue with a six year-old.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

hanelyp
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Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:50 pm

Post by hanelyp »

The coverage mandate was proposed under fear that a worse plan would be rammed through.

MSimon
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Location: Rockford, Illinois
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Post by MSimon »

ScottL wrote:The projections I've seen show the healthcare reform won't een come close to the war cost.

Health Care = $1/trillion over 10 years.

Combined wars = $20/trillion over 20 years or $1/trillion a year by 2019 due to compounding costs of the war(s) and after them.

As for not effecting me, I have full coverage health as a benefit. I'm at 0 risk of being laid off or fired. If anything I'm considered a major asset and should probably try to renegotiate for a higher wage. So unless I start making $200k+ or start going to sun tanning businesses, probably not effected.
Well look at the Medicare predictions. Only off by a factor of 5. Pray that this is no worse.

And the worst of it is that there is no limit on Federal power.

My consolation is that the Right is smaller ways and the Left in Larger have been willing to give up their Birthright for a mass of pottage. A pox on both their houses.

We used to have people who believed like this:

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

There are yet a few of us left. Pray it is enough.

May I remind my esteemed comrades:

Any power you give to government will eventually be used against you.

You all - Left and Right have been blinded by your fears. My hope is that this day has opened a few eyes.

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom—go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!" Samuel Adams

"Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; 'tis dearness only that gives everything its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed, if so celestial an article as Freedom should not be highly rated." Tom Paine

My motto is a very old American one.

Live free or die.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

palladin9479
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:22 am

Post by palladin9479 »

hanelyp wrote:The coverage mandate was proposed under fear that a worse plan would be rammed through.
Umm no, your getting your history skewed due to all the hateraid you've been drinking.

Original Liberal idea was universal coverage / single payer (aka Government Health care). GOP freaked out and said they would never support a single payer system as it would decimate profits from the private insurance industry. Dem's said ok we'll play ball, lets compromise (Obama campaigned on a platform of compromise and bipartisan legislation).

Representatives sat down from both sides and started hammering out ideas. Liberals wanted to prevent "pre-existing conditions" from being a disqualifier from health insurance. They also wanted to make it illegal for insurance companies to terminate someone's coverage. Conservatives said that the only way Insurance companies could be profitable if they couldn't terminate coverage of expensive patients is if everyone was forced to buy insurance, to "spread the cost around". Liberals didn't like that idea, many railed and screamed against it, Obama took lots of flak from the Democratic party for going along with it. Eventually the Dems said that if that's what it took for the Republicans to get on board with it then they'll put it in. That's when the bill had a chance of passing as a bipartisan support.

Once it became clear that the bill had a chance of passing as bipartisan, the GOP party heads went nuclear (absolutely can not hand Obama a political victory) and used the party whip to ensure no member of the GoP voted for the healthcare bill, they then said they would filibuster it to ensure their minority vote overrode the majority vote. To get enough votes the Dems then had to chunk in tons of BS, and turned it into the mess that it is now.

So now we have a healthcare law that is more conservative then it is liberal, yet the conservatives can blame the entire thing on the liberals while denying Obama a political victory. They got to have their cake and eat it to. Brilliant political work on the GOP's part, absolutely masterful playing against the Dem's desire to compromise and letting them do all the work while taking the blame.

I remember that day I looked over everything they did and thought to myself "these bastards are setting everything up for the 2012 elections, their seriously going to cripple the nation for political motives". That was the day that I completely lost faith in the GOP, I used to think they were the more sensible party that was only hamstrung with a religious faction.

So yes they've blinded most of you and manipulated you on an emotional level to supporting them. Congratulations, you've demonstrated that even people with superior and genius level IQ's can be emotionally manipulated.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

It is most amusing to me to watch my friends here barter their liberty. Is it worth $10 trillion or $20? 5 or 10? A nickel or a dime?

Once you start bargaining over the price of your slavery you have proved more than adequately you are slaves.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

GIThruster
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

The really sad thing about your post is you probably believe most of what you wrote. Any child knows it's not true because they know for instance, health reform never had bipartisan support. That's why Pelosi famously said "you have to pass this to find out what's in it." The health care package was obviously the very farthest thing from bipartisan as could be and yet, you have all these delusions about it.

Reminds me of a HuffPost piece I saw earlier about how Rush Limbaugh had promised if the health care package were passed and found constitutional, he would leave the country. I was a little shocked and I read Huff daily, so even though I'm not a Rush fan I read the piece. Yes indeed, they were quoting Rush as stating unequivocally that this is what he intended to do. Then I started researching the issue a little.

Turns out, the quote was completely taken out of context. Rush had said he would go to Costa Rica for his medical needs, not to expatriate himself as the Huff had portrayed him.

And this is the kind of crazy, deceitful, nutty stuff the left tells people every day. It's no wonder someone who wants to instruct us all as to the history of the health care bill actually believes it had bipartisan support. But that's what you get when you act like a drone and get all your news from one source--you're whimsically and pathetically misinformed.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

palladin9479
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:22 am

Post by palladin9479 »

MSimon wrote:It is most amusing to me to watch my friends here barter their liberty. Is it worth $10 trillion or $20? 5 or 10? A nickel or a dime?

Once you start bargaining over the price of your slavery you have proved more than adequately you are slaves.
I never said I agreed with the law, merely pointing out that any conservatives who decry this ruling are hypocrites. Not that that's stopped anyone in the past.

Also this isn't about slavery or any some such nonsense. It was a decent attempt at universal health care that was sidelined by the GOP and then turned into a monstrosity by the Liberals.

If anything you should be for this, or at least something similar to it. Currently the insurance companies are under no requirement to keep you on their roles nor are they under any requirement to pay back the money you gave them. Ultimately they are not required to provide the service they agreed to pay for. It's a scam plain and simple, and like most good scams some people actually do benefit from it, while others do not.

Health insurance companies do not provide any services to you. They do not diagnose your illness, they do not sell you the medicine or otherwise attend to your health. They act as middlemen, and like all middlemen they extract revenue from billing you higher then they had to pay themselves. If they billed you what it cost them, then they would not make a profit and would not exist as a private entity. They used to argue that they provide a service by bargaining the lowest rates, that is not true as pretty much everyone now knows. Offer to pay the hospital / doctor cash for your treatment and the rates drop by as much as half. Thus the insurance companies make it more expensive not less expensive to acquire healthcare. They pass this increased cost onto you in the form of higher fees.

Then the argument becomes that health insurance is for emergencies, incurable disease's, cancer, ect. And that may of been true at one point in time, not any longer. They've created multiple loop holes that can be used to drop your coverage whenever they think your no longer paying them more then their paying your doctors. You hit your head once when you where 16, that's a "pre existing condition" that's responsible for your prostate cancer, coverage revoked. Your pregnant? Your hospital bill is for your unborn baby not you, therefor it's not covered, coverage denied. Post-natal care, the baby was not on your plan and it's birth is a pre-existing condition, coverage denied. Wait you need heart surgery, 12 years ago the data entry clerk used the wrong font, improper paperwork, coverage denied. The list goes on and on about the possible ways they could deny / revoke your coverage on the spot.

palladin9479
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:22 am

Post by palladin9479 »

Now that that's over with.

Lets move on to a real life story about evil "socialized" health care, mine.

As I've said before, I live in South Korea. South Korea has a government health insurance program, the EVIL system that the GOP predicted would bring about the Apocalypse with the four horseman and all. Now being an employee of a US company, part of my benefits is that I'm provided with health insurance (Aetna). Now being a non-resident foreighn employee I'm not required to pay SK tax nor am I a member of their government health care, thus I always pay full price on all doctor visits / bills. My health insurance would normally take care of those costs.

Want to know how often I've used my health insurance? None, absolutely zero. It would cost me more to use my health insurance then to just pay full price and call it a day.

See the SK government when establishing their health case system decided to establish panels to regulate the cost of basic healthcare. Doctor check ups, common medicines, common treatments and so forth all have price caps. It is illegal for a doctor / hospital to charge above a certain amount for a service that is covered under the government healthcare system. Those prices are determined yearly by a panel that includes doctors (elected from their union), government representatives and medical researchers. The program does not cover everything, not close, but it does cover the basics (check ups / preventative medicines / ect..) along with most common procedures. Cancer and obesity are not covered btw. The private insurance industry acts more like an actual insurance industry and covers for things like cancer and such. Cosmetic surgery that isn't considered required to live isn't covered either, nor are contraceptives / abortions. Their policy has been around covering the minimum that 90% of their citizens would require to maintain good health.

Now me, not being a member of their health program doesn't get the government discount. I have to pay full cost, yet thanks to the price limits I'm not overcharged. Unless I pay with US health insurance, then it's whatever they want to charge. There is no lack of health coverage in SK, no 6hr waits, no rationed healthcare / medicine, no death panels, none of that nonsense that the GOP fed it's believers. At most I have a 30min wait if its not a life threatening situation. There are plenty of hospitals and clinics in my city. Being a doctor is considered a high paying job, though their kept extremely busy with all the patients they see.

I've had several visits to those hospitals, one for some stomach issues, another time for a cracked wrist (right hand) that required a cast and visit to an all night clinic (more expensive). The hand is the highest I've ever paid for a procedure, 150,000 KRW (about $~140 USD at the time). It required I visit a clinic at midnight, so had to pay the after hours rates vs the regular daytime rates. No government insurance and required x-rays and a cast. Wait time was 15min until I saw the doctor, he checked over the bones, ordered the x-rays and afterwards set the cast. Only annoying part was dealing with the old grumpy male receptionist over the cost, he was wanting to use the government health system as he thought the 150,000 KRW was too high. I told him I would pay in cash and that it was ok.

So please, oh enlightened ones, tell me all about the evils of "socialized" medicines.

My answer to all of you, the insurance companies are lying through their teeth and buying your politicians votes in their attempt to keep their profit margins high. Your all blindly believing their lie, all in the name of an ideology.

palladin9479
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:22 am

Post by palladin9479 »

Ok got a link to better describe the SK healthcare system.

http://www.ispor.org/news/articles/Oct08/HCSystemsSKorea.asp

What SK learned is that you must control the supply side of the equation otherwise healthcare costs will always skyrocket. You only have one life and only one health, its the more precious thing to anyone. Your health does not have a value and thus it's value can be expressed as infinite (or all the money you have, whichever is lower). In the market of health, the value of health is infinite and thus the demand is also infinite. With demand being infinite, supply must therefor be a number infinitely near zero (so small as to not be measurably greater then zero). Thus the natural market price cap on good health will always be infinite (or all your money, whichever is less). Literally the costs must go up, and keep going up on until their consumed all available money. This is why supply side regulation and control are an absolute must, its the only way to prevent health costs from approaching infinity. It's one of the very few times I would say heavy government regulation in a market is required, violence and national security being some of the others.

ScottL
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:26 pm

Post by ScottL »

GIThruster wrote:Bunch of stuff above...
Funny, the 1993 Republican Health Reform Plan sounds an awful lot like the nicknamed "ObamaCare":

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories ... -bill.aspx

Both parties are to blame in this debacle. Replace government with corporations and you have the Republican mantra, they're the same part with different routes to the same goal. The sad part about health care reform is that we rank 148th in infant mortality rates.... let that sink in for a minute.... 148th and our total population only makes up 4.47% of the world. We couldn't get off our asses to save ourselves let alone our neighbor. You want to point fingers and say something is wrong, we should all be pointing them at ourselves.

As for the numbers...we're the number one country to spend on our military. We spend so much on it that we spend more than the next 26 countries combined and 25 of those are our allies. We're also number one in peple incarcerated. We're doing a bang up job and the great thing about all this is for my personal generation, I only have all of you to blame. I've gotten to vote in a handful of elections (Bush Jr's 2) and I voted against him in each, not because I'm a Democrat (I'm not), but because he is a monolithic bible-thumping moron.

GIThruster
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

Scott, that's what you're supposed to believe. That's what you're taught to believe. That's the standard leftist talking points. It's the way Europe is organized. You did note Europe is going bankrupt? And you did note they don't spend enough on defense to secure their own interests even in back-woods places like Libya? Europe hasn't paid for its own defense since WWII. The USA has been footing the bill to defend Europe for more than 60 years.

I personally think socialized medicine would be a good thing if we could afford it. The problem is we can't afford it. I also have a problem with this Robin-Hood economics mentality that its okay to steal form the rich in order to give to the poor. You're assuming that it's the proper role of government to redistribute wealth. Most of those who disagree with you hold to the notion that the government has an extremely limited role, that chiefly includes national defense.

You're objecting to what defense costs, but you've just shown you don't know what it costs. You know what you heard on MSNBC, or some other misinformation mill.

Just saying, while I can sympathize with the idea behind socialized medicine, I think it's got to be obvious it is going to cost a fortune. If you believe otherwise, you're a fool. The problem is that we don't have the funds to simply pick up 30 million people's medical expenses. The problem is people are being lied to and told we can afford this when we obviously cannot. The problem is sooner of later, you run out of other people's money.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

palladin9479
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:22 am

Post by palladin9479 »

ScottL wrote:
GIThruster wrote:Bunch of stuff above...
Funny, the 1993 Republican Health Reform Plan sounds an awful lot like the nicknamed "ObamaCare":

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories ... -bill.aspx

Both parties are to blame in this debacle. Replace government with corporations and you have the Republican mantra, they're the same part with different routes to the same goal. The sad part about health care reform is that we rank 148th in infant mortality rates.... let that sink in for a minute.... 148th and our total population only makes up 4.47% of the world. We couldn't get off our asses to save ourselves let alone our neighbor. You want to point fingers and say something is wrong, we should all be pointing them at ourselves.

As for the numbers...we're the number one country to spend on our military. We spend so much on it that we spend more than the next 26 countries combined and 25 of those are our allies. We're also number one in peple incarcerated. We're doing a bang up job and the great thing about all this is for my personal generation, I only have all of you to blame. I've gotten to vote in a handful of elections (Bush Jr's 2) and I voted against him in each, not because I'm a Democrat (I'm not), but because he is a monolithic bible-thumping moron.
I agree. So tired of both parties blinding the population, both are just as bad (I rail against the GoP on here only because there are so few liberals to smack around). Its our own fault for allowing ourselves to hate so much that we lose sense of purpose. Once loyalty to party / ideology trump loyalty to country, then we've got a problem.

GIThruster
Posts: 4686
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

Well, perhaps i should own one more time that I am actually in favor of a tax increase for the wealthiest 1%, but I'm also for a corporate business tax cut. We ca't compete in the global economy with the world's highest business tax rate. So I don't qualify as a party liner.

Seems obvious to me with the debt we have and the deficits we have, we have to get our house in order before we talk about more entitlements.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

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