Mars Colony financing

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williatw
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Mars Colony financing

Postby williatw » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:36 pm

Elon Musk said elsewhere that he thinks that 500K a ticket is the price for being able to send people to Mars privately at a profit. He said that he thinks that there are at least 8000 and probably very many more willing/able to pay. Let assume he is right. How would the colony make money? How about: The Cayman Islands in space?. Mars has one big thing to trade upon, its location beyond all claims of any government as to sovereignty. Meaning it does not have to follow any earth laws. The colony bank of mars (probably a bunch of server/routers/cpu's in a room) could offer clients tax free interest on deposits (say 5% more for big investors) and total confidentiality. Records not available to any gov agency wanting to know anything about, no legal obligation to do so.

hanelyp
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Postby hanelyp » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:36 am

Wouldn't have to follow any Earth side laws, until some government decided a military operation was worth the trouble. An independent operator can't afford to make too big a nuisance of themselves.

Expect governments to find ways to tax investments grown outside their jurisdiction when they're brought home.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:46 am

Thieves are always hungry. And who would tell me that if government offered big bucks for him to produce a fleet he wouldn't? After all it would lower his marginal cost.

Our only hope for liberty is to get enough people to want it.

The Bible (FWIW) is not hopeful on that score. Too many will sell their birthright for a mess of pottage. 1776 was an aberration. Jefferson in the 1820s despaired over what his country had already become. Two hundred years later and it is much, much, worse.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

williatw
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Postby williatw » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:59 am

hanelyp wrote:Wouldn't have to follow any Earth side laws, until some government decided a military operation was worth the trouble. An independent operator can't afford to make too big a nuisance of themselves.

Expect governments to find ways to tax investments grown outside their jurisdiction when they're brought home.


Yeah but Mars is 6months to a year away...not hours away like a inflatable bigelow space station in earth orbit. Or two days away like the moon. By the time some gov decides to act there could be thousands of Mars colonists, good luck finding the server/cpu with the encrypted data on the depositors etc. They would have plenty of advanced warning earth forces were coming and what would they do when they got there? Who says the investments are brought home? A depositor would simply transfer funds through some sort of holding company as needed, would be difficult to know where he got it from or how much he actually had off planet.

Luzr
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Postby Luzr » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:46 am

williatw wrote:Yeah but Mars is 6months to a year away...not hours away like a inflatable bigelow space station in earth orbit. Or two days away like the moon. By the time some gov decides to act there could be thousands of Mars colonists, good luck finding the server/cpu with the encrypted data on the depositors etc.


OK, I could see the reason for server/cpu somewhere in space.... but what are colonists needed for then?

williatw
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Postby williatw » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:08 am

Luzr wrote:
williatw wrote:Yeah but Mars is 6months to a year away...not hours away like a inflatable bigelow space station in earth orbit. Or two days away like the moon. By the time some gov decides to act there could be thousands of Mars colonists, good luck finding the server/cpu with the encrypted data on the depositors etc.


OK, I could see the reason for server/cpu somewhere in space.... but what are colonists needed for then?

From the colonist point of view the bank is their source of revenue capital to developing mars. I assume you mean from the investors point of view..well, the people of the Cayman Islands establishes legitimacy for the banks there, not sure an uninhabited unclaimed island would have worked as well. The people living there can claim sovereign independence that has to be respected A server/cpu buried in Martian regolith by it self versus a growing mars colony of people claiming right of self-determination. Plus some type of maintenance use might need to be made on the mars end. A "bank" makes money by loaning money to people/businesses back on earth, that’s what it source of revenue is to pay its depositors interest. A percentage of the colonist might be so employed, processing loans etc on line, to say nothing of physical maintenance of the equipment on mars.

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:43 pm

I think that once we have cheap access to LEO, we should first focus on establishing a space infrastructure with stations and bases in LEO, L- point and on the moon. Then make plans on how to terraform mars. I have had some ideas about that (for a scifi novel I would love to write one day).

williatw
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Postby williatw » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:14 pm

Skipjack wrote:I think that once we have cheap access to LEO, we should first focus on establishing a space infrastructure with stations and bases in LEO, L- point and on the moon. Then make plans on how to terraform mars. I have had some ideas about that (for a scifi novel I would love to write one day).

Or do both..no reason why they would be mutually exclusive accept we are used to thinking of them as either or. One private group goes to Mars a different one to the Moon.

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:57 pm

Or do both..no reason why they would be mutually exclusive accept we are used to thinking of them as either or. One private group goes to Mars a different one to the Moon.

Because you dont want to be on Mars, when the terraforming begins...

ladajo
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Postby ladajo » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:42 am

It does beg an interesting question. If a private group pulls enough resources together and gets themselves to Mars and subsequently claims themselves as the "Republic of Mars". Hmmm.
Given that there are probably 1.5 states with the resources to argue the point...they may actually pull it off.
Once they start making babies, what an issue.
If a single nutcase can get the UK to give in on a sovereignty claim for an artificial island of the coast of Britain, I think that a well organized group could pull it off on Mars and those on Earth could do nothing about it.

williatw
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Postby williatw » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:02 am

ladajo wrote:It does beg an interesting question. If a private group pulls enough resources together and gets themselves to Mars and subsequently claims themselves as the "Republic of Mars". Hmmm.
Given that there are probably 1.5 states with the resources to argue the point...they may actually pull it off.
Once they start making babies, what an issue.
If a single nutcase can get the UK to give in on a sovereignty claim for an artificial island of the coast of Britain, I think that a well organized group could pull it off on Mars and those on Earth could do nothing about it.
An unlike other ideas about mars making money like mining, etc; this could be done as soon as the colonist set foot on mars. The "Bank of Mars" would not have to be a publicly traded company, no obligation of disclosure about clients size of assets or anything.

ladajo
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Postby ladajo » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:10 am

Of course, all that said, and some lawyer will pull out an interpretation of some tax code and tort that allows sovereign claim to the money chain that got them there...and thus derive some sort of soverign claim to the presence... :?

williatw
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Postby williatw » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:24 am

ladajo wrote:Of course, all that said, and some lawyer will pull out an interpretation of some tax code and tort that allows sovereign claim to the money chain that got them there...and thus derive some sort of soverign claim to the presence... :?

He would have to first be able to trace the money to mars and to be able to prove it was there. You can ultimately send someone to the Cayman Islands with some sort of subpoena/search warrant, I believe they are technically some sort of territory of the British/EU. Tough to see how that would work in the case of mars. No one has any sovereignty even in theory, in fact 1967 outer space treaty expressedly forbids any claim of sovereignty. The bank of mars wouldn't even have to be publically acknowledged to exist by the colonists. Of course if Bigelow is right and the Chinese pull out of the 1967 treaty, obviously America would quickly follow suit so all bets would then I guess be off.

hanelyp
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Postby hanelyp » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:34 am

A bank without recognized existence is going to have difficulty getting depositors' money in and out. Any colonization scheme dependent on ongoing financial relations with Earth is subject to the limits of whoever is willing to do business.

williatw
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Postby williatw » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:02 am

hanelyp wrote:A bank without recognized existence is going to have difficulty getting depositors' money in and out. Any colonization scheme dependent on ongoing financial relations with Earth is subject to the limits of whoever is willing to do business.

Thinking that initially the "bank" would be known by a select few rich investors, maybe people Musk knows. By the time it became well know it might have assets in the 10's or even 100's of billions or trillions of dollars. No taxes and confidentiality would be very attractive to many. Tough to stop/shutdown at that point.


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