So how much things are "improving" in the muslim w

[KitemanSA]

As to evidence; read their holy book. It is repleat with bragadocceo over their genocidal exploits. Kind of sickening, really. Joshua ring a bell?

Ah my friend. You are ignorant of the Jewish religion. We now have roughly 3,500 years of common law. For the last 2,000 years acts such as those are now forbidden. By common law. There are very few literalists Jews left. And if they attempted such stunts they would be prosecuted. Not applauded as the Muslims who try such things are.

Not sure I ever really mentioned the Jewish religion here, though I'll admit that way too may people confuse the Jewish religion with the Isrealite nation.

What the "Jewish Religion" says and what the "Isrealite Nation" does do not always have a lot in common, any more than the "Christian Religion" and the "Spanish Inquisitors" were necessarily in synch.

The Jews under the Judges had a very Libertarian government. At least for those times. Samuel warned against getting a King.

Yup, and then they got a king anyway and the excrament hit the rotary air motivating device.

I have been trying to be tactful about this, but eventually one must point out the obvious. Your apparent desire to nuke the religious center of a competing religion marks you as proto-typical of the very attitude I see in the Isreali (Isrealite) people. "They don't kowtow, nuke 'em". Dress it how you wish, it is still tinged with genocidal propensities.

It may be that that attitude is in fact the final winning attitude, but I sure hope not. If it is, then it seems probable that America is dead since, as you are so fond of pointing out, the semites seem to have it in aboundance.

[Helius]

Start by studying history and the Bible. Christianity has been at war with all other religions since their inception, especially Muslims.

<chuckle> The bible doesn't know squat about Moslems.

[choff]

I remember one line from a Popular Mechanics or other some such Mag covering the US military that said, 'it is estimated that up to one out of every two jobs in the United States is somehow affected by the military.'

So, how would the US economy be doing differently now if 911 never happened? How would the world be different?

I've always though that the Taliban and Al Quaeda followers were all day suckers for thinking they could defeat a country with approx. 10k nukes.

[KitemanSA]

They have no belief they can defeat us. They are relying on us to defeat ourselves. They seem to be winning that one.

[JohnSmith]

<chuckle> The bible doesn't know squat about Moslems.

Um, no. Islam appeared after the events of the new testament, if I recall correctly. But Israel did go into killing infidels in a big way. And the crusades are a pretty big clue to the historical christian attitude towards Muslims. Point is, they don't do that anymore. And not because they got nuked, either.

[93143]

And the crusades are a pretty big clue to the historical christian attitude towards Muslims.

The Crusades were defensive wars.

What happened was this: Militant Islam stormed out of Arabia and conquered roughly half of Christendom, subjugating the native populations and forcing them to either convert to Islam or live as heavily-taxed second-class citizens under an array of restrictions. They broke for a while against Constantinople and France, and as we all know the Spaniards eventually succeeded in driving them back out (the Byzantines weren't as fortunate).

The Byzantine Empire issued a plea for help from their fellow Christians in Europe. This plea was answered.

Human nature being what it is (and European peoples being largely recently converted uneducated barbarians), the result was a bit sloppy. But they tried. The Crusades were never an attempt to destroy Islam, still less to kill all Muslims. They were an attempt to liberate fellow Christians from their Muslim conquerors.

[Skipjack]

The Byzantine Empire issued a plea for help from their fellow Christians in Europe. This plea was answered.

Well, actually one of the crusades (I am not sure anymore, I think it was the third) had the only goal to destroy the Byzantine Empire and the eastern church. It lead to the complete and final breach between the eastern christian church and the catholic church.

[MSimon]

Um, no. Islam appeared after the events of the new testament, if I recall correctly. But Israel did go into killing infidels in a big way.

Yeah. And America went in for piling up the bodies of Germans and Japanese.

Genocide? Or war?

BTW got a link for the "Big Way"? You know. Evidence.

[MSimon]

I remember one line from a Popular Mechanics or other some such Mag covering the US military that said, 'it is estimated that up to one out of every two jobs in the United States is somehow affected by the military.'

So, how would the US economy be doing differently now if 911 never happened? How would the world be different?

I've always though that the Taliban and Al Quaeda followers were all day suckers for thinking they could defeat a country with approx. 10k nukes.

About 100% of all jobs are affected by the oil companies. They are twice as bad. And they are probably in cahoots with the electric companies also affecting near 100% of all jobs.

All humans alive are affected by CO2. Lets ban it.

Water seems to be a part of all the lives of every living human, it must be regulated. A clamp down on waterholics? Essential? Or just necessary?

Almost all logic circuit packaging (at least the smaller bits) is the esult of work done on the "flat pack" for missiles. Step away from that electronic device slowly and nobody will get hurt.

[93143]

The Byzantine Empire issued a plea for help from their fellow Christians in Europe. This plea was answered.

Well, actually one of the crusades (I am not sure anymore, I think it was the third) had the only goal to destroy the Byzantine Empire and the eastern church. It lead to the complete and final breach between the eastern christian church and the catholic church.

It was the Fourth. And its original objective was Egypt, before the blind old Doge of Venice, Enrico Dandolo, managed to hijack it, apparently to get revenge for his blinding with a burning glass back when he was an ambassador in the Byzantine court.

The crusade was to make directly for the centre of the Muslim world, Cairo, ready to sail on June 24, 1202. This agreement was ratified by Pope Innocent, with a solemn ban on attacks on Christian states.

...no, it didn't quite go as planned, did it? And try to understand the context of the events before making wisecracks, please; there's no excuse for what they did, but it's at least understandable if you pay attention.

As I said - a bit sloppy. Humans will be humans. Islam encourages it. Christianity tries to rein it in. The fact that it is not entirely successful is actually part of Christian doctrine...

[MSimon]

I'd argue it's the other way around - the definition makes no mention of just or unjust, merely the action.

So fighting to change someone's mind is not genocide, but the eradication - in whole or part - of the people who submit to an ideology is. Just or not.

My biggest problem with the fight in the ME isn't even the 'Islam is incompatible' view, it's the 'well, our enemy doesn't believe in human rights, so why should we bother with them' part.

You should study the Pacific War. Getting the Japanese to surrender was very difficult. Easier to shoot them. And less dangerous.

[MSimon]

I have been trying to be tactful about this, but eventually one must point out the obvious. Your apparent desire to nuke the religious center of a competing religion marks you as proto-typical of the very attitude I see in the Isreali (Isrealite) people.

If some one had a policy of murdering you and all your relatives what would be your attitude? Especially when within a life time of some other nut making the attempt. And said nut's book still being a best seller in the ME?

I sincerely hope they change their minds before drastic measures are called for.

But you know? Maybe they are holding Americans and Euros hostage by saving one for Mecca and 99 for ME oil fields. That is what I would do. Very few battlefield casualties. Vast damage to those who let the situation get intolerable. And remember the Israeli tolerance might be less than yours.

You may not be interested in war but war is interested in you - Lev Davidovich Bronstein

[MSimon]

Hitting the terrorists is fine. I've said it before, I say it again, I have no problem with destroying those who've hit you. What I am against is killing those who wish you no harm, just because it's easier than finding the actual enemy. And hoping that bombing those civs reduces the number of terrorists.

John,

That is EXACTLY what the jihadis did in Iraq. Americans too tough? Bomb market places.

[KitemanSA]

That is EXACTLY what the jihadis did in Iraq. Americans too tough? Bomb market places.

Do you see the similarity there?

Jihadists in Iraq, "Americans too tough, bomb the market place".
MSimon in America, "Jihadists too hard to find, nuke Mecca".

The difference, other than MSimon being MUCH more extreme, is?

I once had a semitic teacher who was a small man but fond on saying "you hit me once, I hit you ten times". MSimon, how are you different than this small Palestinian man?

IMHO, this discussion is counter to the continued good working and cooperation of this forum so I will not participate in this topic again. I suggest that others let it drop too.

Thank you.

[MSimon]

"Jihadists too hard to find, nuke Mecca".

We could always drop leaflets to limit the deaths to those that actually want to die. That should also help by creating a mass of homeless people. It was the tactic the Israelis used in Lebanon. The clamor for war in that neighborhood has declined. Considerably.

=====

They want to be martyrs. We want to oblige them.

That is what I call serving the market.