The more things "Change" ...

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ravingdave
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The more things "Change" ...

Postby ravingdave » Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:43 pm

The more things "Change" the more they stay the same. Here is a Chicago Tribune cartoon from the 1930s illustrating the same Democrat ideas we are seeing nowadays.



Image



:)

David

KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:06 pm

Didn't work then either. FDR finally hid that inconvenient fact under a world war. Will BHO become as popular as FDR thru a WWIII?

TallDave
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Postby TallDave » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:43 pm

Fortunately we're quite a bit smarter in all regards 70 years later. We're not likely to see many of the worst mistakes of the those days repeated (e.g. trade wars, attempts at commodity inflation, massive wage/price controls, a 90% top marginal income tax rate).

I expect the current wave of mind-boggling (30% of GDP!) deficits and nationalizations will soon collapse under the weight of its own absurdity. Just wait until the investigations of how TARP money was distributed. I expect several Congresspeople will be facing indictments over the next couple years.

jgarry
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Postby jgarry » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:06 pm

Lord knows the GOP has all sorts of credibility on matters economic.

ravingdave
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Postby ravingdave » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:45 pm

jgarry wrote:Lord knows the GOP has all sorts of credibility on matters economic.



That is a fair criticism in light of how the GOP was complicit in opening the floodgates of reckless spending during the last 8 years. At this point I trust them no better than I trust the Democrats, and as far as i'm concerned, the only solution to the problem that I see is term limits.


Of course the difference between the GOP the last eight years and the Democrats nowadays is something like an order of magnitude. Yes the GOP was wrong in so much earmarking and pork barrel spending, but the Democrats are going in the same direction but four times harder.


Here's a chart to illustrate the difference.


Image


David

ravingdave
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Postby ravingdave » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:56 pm

Here are two more charts to illustrate the idea better. Notice the charts span about a hundred years.


Image



This one is updated to include The current Congress and President borrowing.

Image



Scary.


David

jgarry
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Postby jgarry » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:17 am

True enough, however the democrats are trying to accomplish something, and their ideas are backed by theory and history, though it must be acknowledged that macro-economics is about as uncertain as a science can be. But the GOP has probably not had such unfettered access to the levers of power as they enjoyed under Bush since Hoover. A quick check shows that only under Ike did they have both houses of congress and the presidency for a brief two year span. And as we see they have promptly returned us to an economic depression.

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Postby MSimon » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:30 am

jgarry wrote:True enough, however the democrats are trying to accomplish something, and their ideas are backed by theory and history, though it must be acknowledged that macro-economics is about as uncertain as a science can be. But the GOP has probably not had such unfettered access to the levers of power as they enjoyed under Bush since Hoover. A quick check shows that only under Ike did they have both houses of congress and the presidency for a brief two year span. And as we see they have promptly returned us to an economic depression.


I wouldn't worry none. Obama has an excellent plan for extending an deepening the recession along with a plan for stagflation by following the FDR/Carter model.
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jgarry
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Postby jgarry » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:05 am

Or perhaps Obama is right about something. The first thing we should do is quit arguing and try to work together toward solutions of our problems.
Capitalism is the way to go, but those who believe that totally free markets are the solution to anything should be forced to drive in certain countries that have no traffic laws so that they can see the reason laws exist.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:36 am

jgarry wrote:Or perhaps Obama is right about something. The first thing we should do is quit arguing and try to work together toward solutions of our problems.
Capitalism is the way to go, but those who believe that totally free markets are the solution to anything should be forced to drive in certain countries that have no traffic laws so that they can see the reason laws exist.


I see your point. Why should we be arguing whether more or less government spending is the solution? We can do both.

Well of course no laws is a bad situation. So is too many. Now where are we on the Lawfer Curve? For that matter where are we on the Laffer Curve?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
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TallDave
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Postby TallDave » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:09 am

jgarry wrote:Lord knows the GOP has all sorts of credibility on matters economic.


Shrug. They're just the lesser of two evils.

Watching the Obama admin simultaneously call $8B in corrupt earmarks "miniscule" and pretend $100M in spending cuts is "a lot of money," all while running up a deficit so large this single year may eclipse the Bush admin's entire legacy of debt, you wonder just how bad the Republicans could be.

And as we see they have promptly returned us to an economic depression.


LOL That's certainly a selective reading of events. Democrats have controlled Congress since 2006, and the subprime crisis was largely of their making. Which Republican policy is supposedly at fault here?

Or perhaps Obama is right about something. The first thing we should do is quit arguing and try to work together toward solutions of our problems.


Yeah, too bad he doesn't actually do anything like that.
Last edited by TallDave on Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

jgarry
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Postby jgarry » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:17 am

The lesser of two evils? I would say nothing but pure evil.
As I pointed out, the GOP under Bush had its most unfettered access to the levers of power since Hoover and promptly proceeded to produce another depression.

TallDave
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Postby TallDave » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:20 am

jgarry wrote:The lesser of two evils? I would say nothing but pure evil.


Thus demonstrating your ignorance.

As I pointed out, the GOP under Bush had its most unfettered access to the levers of power since Hoover and promptly proceeded to produce another depression.


Again, that's certainly a selective reading of events. Democrats have controlled Congress since 2006, and the subprime crisis was largely of their making. Which Republican policy is supposedly at fault here?

The blame probably lies most with the bipartisan effort to dismantle Glass-Steagal, which began under Clinton in 1999, and was widely applauded by everyone except a few fudd-duddy worrywart accountants. Now we have institutions that are "too big to fail" and instead of markets functioning to punish bad decisions we get gov't bailouts at taxpayer expense.

This was not a failure of free markets, this was a failure to preserve free markets.
Last edited by TallDave on Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

TallDave
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Postby TallDave » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:23 am

however the democrats are trying to accomplish something, and their ideas are backed by theory and history,


This is just crazy talk. What economic theory or history suggests a massive expansion of government is beneficial to the economy? It doesn't seem to have worked out well anywhere it's been tried. Certainly this is anathema to the prevailing Friedman-Hayek view of economics which has given us the highest living standards in the world.

jgarry
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Postby jgarry » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

One could admire your sophisticated arguments, the way you artfully skate around the point. The GOP had their most unfettered access to power since Hoover and promptly returned us to a state of economic depression. They were the party that touted the need to deregulate and free the financial system; they were the ones who staffed the SEC with toadies tasked to avoid inhibiting the financial markets with any sort of enforcement; they were the ones who had no notion of developing the economy other than some sort of ponzi scheme of infinitely rising real estate values.
The democrats are hardly blameless, and it is perhaps a matter of degree. There's no black and white. But the GOP is covered in a lot darker gray.


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