Polywell and Ionocraft
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Polywell and Ionocraft
SO! I was reading about reactionless thrusters filling time the other day when i stumbled upon something that didn't make physics cry, Lifters. Also comonly known as Ionocraft.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionocraft
The general gist is Ions are formed from the air and accelerated down at high velocity, as far as thrust to weight ratios most designs only accommodate an extra gram/watt more than their own weight. So I was curious about polywell as power source. at 100 mw that's 10E8 watts, or 10E8 grams, 10E5 kilograms or 50 metric tons. Does the current theorized WB 100 weigh more than 50 metric tons?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionocraft
The general gist is Ions are formed from the air and accelerated down at high velocity, as far as thrust to weight ratios most designs only accommodate an extra gram/watt more than their own weight. So I was curious about polywell as power source. at 100 mw that's 10E8 watts, or 10E8 grams, 10E5 kilograms or 50 metric tons. Does the current theorized WB 100 weigh more than 50 metric tons?
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Re: Polywell and Ionocraft
That is in the ball park.Professor Science wrote:SO! I was reading about reactionless thrusters filling time the other day when i stumbled upon something that didn't make physics cry, Lifters. Also comonly known as Ionocraft.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionocraft
The general gist is Ions are formed from the air and accelerated down at high velocity, as far as thrust to weight ratios most designs only accommodate an extra gram/watt more than their own weight. So I was curious about polywell as power source. at 100 mw that's 10E8 watts, or 10E8 grams, 10E5 kilograms or 50 metric tons. Does the current theorized WB 100 weigh more than 50 metric tons?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
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But the kind of skeletal support structure for it may make it a good chunk heavier. But even moderate improvements on performance could make it for an interesting purely electrical air craft.
Edit: Upon further reading, the Biefeld–Brown effect which ionocraft exploit depends on High voltage DC which unless I'm mistake Polywells have in spades. yes?
Edit: Upon further reading, the Biefeld–Brown effect which ionocraft exploit depends on High voltage DC which unless I'm mistake Polywells have in spades. yes?
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A 747 is roughly 100,000 hp (ie - 100 MW). But it weighs a lot more.MirariNefas wrote:A 100 megawatt reactor just to lift 50 metric tons? Applicable only in the atmosphere, where we have various other options for achieving lift? Why would someone want to do this?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_h ... Boeing_747
One engine is 125,000 hp.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
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If you could improve the performances on ionocraft some advantages would probably be maintenance since there are no moving parts, noise pollution, maneuverability perhaps.
I'm not saying they're wonderful, just something nifty that would require power supplies like a polywell to run on the large scale.
I'm not saying they're wonderful, just something nifty that would require power supplies like a polywell to run on the large scale.
The pursuit of knowledge is in the best of interest of all mankind.
Actually, this puppy might be VERY noisy. The general cause of noise in jets is the differential speed of the exhaust and the atmosphere. Where the difference in speeds are high, the jet is noisy. The ion-craft would probably have VERY high exhaust speeds, so may be very noisy.Professor Science wrote:If you could improve the performances on ionocraft some advantages would probably be ... noise pollution, ...
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Pure speculation, but has the concept any application to levitation in sea water? Certainly the work needed to lift or balance a heavier than water submarine is much less than doing the same thing in air. And, there are certainly plenty of ions aviable. The problem might be too many ions- shorting out the system. If it worked, it presumeably would be much more stealthy than flooding or pumping out ballest tanks or possibly using fins. If the force was directed forwards it would again presumably be much quieter than a propeller. Is this anything like the silent drive popularized in the movie "Red October"? [Edit] Actually it is MHD, perhaps similar in princible?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive
Dan Tibbets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive
Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.
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It works in any fluid, gas or liquid. The force is a product of Current times distance traveled, divided by how "movable" the medium is. you would just need to space the conducting parts far enough apart that they don't arc. that would be bad.
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Noise...
Um, from what little I've seen of ion-lifters, they *hiss* like electrostatic machines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_generator
http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/electrostatic.html
If scaled, they may resemble cranky HV switchgear, and spit StElmo's Fire all over the neighbourhood.
FWIW, even domestic 'neg-ion generators' hiss, but you gotta get close...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_generator
http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/electrostatic.html
If scaled, they may resemble cranky HV switchgear, and spit StElmo's Fire all over the neighbourhood.
FWIW, even domestic 'neg-ion generators' hiss, but you gotta get close...
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With little theoretical basis I'm going to try incorporating a fractal pattern into the top, thin wire part, and see if it increases lift by increasing current flow without increasing mass too much. I'd like to read research on this matter, but I don't rightly know where to look. I know there's a japanese group doing stuff with it, but beyond that I'm in the dark.
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Have you looked into fractal antennas?Professor Science wrote:With little theoretical basis I'm going to try incorporating a fractal pattern into the top, thin wire part, and see if it increases lift by increasing current flow without increasing mass too much. I'd like to read research on this matter, but I don't rightly know where to look. I know there's a japanese group doing stuff with it, but beyond that I'm in the dark.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
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I heard about them on NOVA concerning fractals and it was one of those "well duh!" moments where you realize that makes an awful lot of sense. So I thought if fractals are used in nature to increase surface area to volume ratios and that's one of the things that effects corona discharge it could be worth exploring.
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