What the Obots think of anybody who disagrees with them

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Jccarlton
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What the Obots think of anybody who disagrees with them

Postby Jccarlton » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:32 am

I don't like posting about politics here in general, but those of us who don't follow the One blindly need do know how the other side really thinks of us:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms45EzMR ... r_embedded
If you don't understand, just look at NAZI Germany and the propaganda about the Jews. That this was on a major "news" network just sickens me.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:54 am

The election in 2010 will be most amusing. And 2012 is going to be the height of hilarity.

About 1/2 the electorate is apathetic about politics. If 20% of them decide to participate in the next election due to taxes and inflation.....

My first mate didn't want to vote for the Black Man for two reasons.

1. Disagreements about political philosophy.
2. All political questions would be turned into arguments about racism.

I think re: #2 she was on to something.
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Jccarlton
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Postby Jccarlton » Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:49 am

The 2010 election is going to be fun indeed. Locally, it's pretty certain Dodd is toast. Hopefully we can get somebody good. The Democratic part is revealing itself as the most tone deaf bunch of politicians ever. It's as if they are the reincarnations of the French Bourbons after the Napoleonic wars. "They have forgotten nothing and learned nothing."
The most frightening part to me wasn't the race card right out of the box. It was the relentless intimation that anybody who was not as lunatic as she was was brain damaged and mentally deficient. Just because they disagreed with the Democrats. Down that road is a very dangerous slippery slope. :(

djolds1
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Postby djolds1 » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:59 pm

MSimon wrote:The election in 2010 will be most amusing. And 2012 is going to be the height of hilarity.

2010? I doubt it. Some Dem losses, but minor. The GOPhers are too disorganized, still riven by internal war and mutual factional contempt, with an empty bench of candidates.

2012 stands the potential to be "interesting."

Jccarlton wrote:The 2010 election is going to be fun indeed. Locally, it's pretty certain Dodd is toast. Hopefully we can get somebody good. The Democratic part is revealing itself as the most tone deaf bunch of politicians ever. It's as if they are the reincarnations of the French Bourbons after the Napoleonic wars. "They have forgotten nothing and learned nothing."

This is the best chance they've had to push through the Social Democratic agenda since 1974, and they're jumping through shooting. Bureaucracies have a life of their own. If they can force the programs through it won't matter if they lose control 2 years later; fait accompli.

What surprises me is that Obama is doing the pushing. I expected that to come from the Democratic House, with Obama doing the usual "work on getting reelected" Presidential shtick. He's revealed himself as a true believer; his enablers hid that well during the campaign.

Duane
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MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:19 pm

What surprises me is that Obama is doing the pushing. I expected that to come from the Democratic House, with Obama doing the usual "work on getting reelected" Presidential shtick. He's revealed himself as a true believer; his enablers hid that well during the campaign.


That should be revised to "well enough" - there were a lot who weren't fooled.
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ravingdave
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Postby ravingdave » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:53 pm

djolds1 wrote:
MSimon wrote:The election in 2010 will be most amusing. And 2012 is going to be the height of hilarity.

2010? I doubt it. Some Dem losses, but minor. The GOPhers are too disorganized, still riven by internal war and mutual factional contempt, with an empty bench of candidates.



I agree with your conclusions, but not with your reasons. As with water vapour being the most significant component of global temperature, the fact that the Media, the entertainment industry, and the education system, are firmly in the hands of Liberals, is likewise the most significant factor in what happens in national elections.

Media bias will continue to skew elections towards the left, and unless it can be overcome, not much is going to change. The Republicans lost elections ONLY because of the Media and Entertainment industries slam job on them.

As i've said before, the fourth estate = the fifth column.

Fortunately, the left wing media is suffering, while the less left wing media (Fox News) is thriving. If the liberal media looses enough influence, we might actually start having fair elections.


David

djolds1
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Postby djolds1 » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:35 am

ravingdave wrote:
djolds1 wrote:
MSimon wrote:The election in 2010 will be most amusing. And 2012 is going to be the height of hilarity.
2010? I doubt it. Some Dem losses, but minor. The GOPhers are too disorganized, still riven by internal war and mutual factional contempt, with an empty bench of candidates.
I agree with your conclusions, but not with your reasons. As with water vapour being the most significant component of global temperature, the fact that the Media, the entertainment industry, and the education system, are firmly in the hands of Liberals, is likewise the most significant factor in what happens in national elections.

It was. With the "birth" of the net ~15 years ago, cutting through the smoke and mirrors of Pravda has become much easier. How many frauds did Dan Rather get away with over the course of his career? How many will he ever get away with again?

I stand by my primary judgment. The core problem for the GOP is a deserved loss of credibility ("Stay the Course!", Katrina, corruption), and internal factional warfare (Miers, Amnesty, McCain as candidate, malign neglect of recruiting new talent by the late Bush leadership).

Quote from another location
snipped wrote:There's a reason John McCain's campaign stuttered along haplessly, and one of them was the fact that a huge swath of the voters he had to have to win were fairly sure that he was at heart one of the opposition.

There were widespread rumors that Kerry actually approached McCain to be his running mate against Bush in 2004, and true or false McCain never really succeeded in dispelling them. Likewise, McCain's role in the attempts at Comprehensive Amnesty left a huge chunk of the indispensable GOP voters more-or-less loathing him. Like Bush, he showed no sign of grasping just how toxic the issue was, and he never was able to convince conservatives he wouldn't try it again.

On issue after issue, Obama and McCain presented a choice of establishment figures, the distinction being one of nuance. There just wasn't anything in McCain's campaign that would be likely to energize the potential GOP voters, the best argument he was "I'm not as bad as Obama."

And he couldn't even present that one convincingly. At one point he told a crowd of would-be supporters that "He's a decent man. You don't have to be afraid of him." :? :lol: :roll:

(Being 'Mr. Nice Guy' almost never works in American elections.)

McCain fell into the trap Harry Truman described when he said, "Give the people a choice between a Republican and a Republican and they will vote for the Republican every time." He offered the country a choice of a Democrat and a Democrat...and the Democrat won.
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Postby MSimon » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:55 am

Duane,

Stay the Course pretty much worked in Iraq. Katrina was a failure of local government (underwater buses?).

How do I know this? Well, I don't have to depend on Pravda and Izvestia. Now a lot of folks are still buying that junk. But think of it: The New York Times is essentially bankrupt. The landscape is going to be very different in 2012.
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Postby MSimon » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:04 am

The Republican Party has to decide if it is culturally based or economics based.

But you are correct. The Republicans have no rising stars. I like Palin's politics but who ever is advising her is an idiot. She needs an education in economics. She needs to emphasize "leave us alone" vs "I'm a cultural conservative, just like what is left of the Party". Or she could double down and go with "I'm a leave us alone cultural conservative". And Jindal is going down the same wrong road. It may work in Louisiana, but it is not going to work in the USA.

Any way - I don't expect the Republicans to start getting out of the mush until 2016.

Simon
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MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:07 am

Oh, yeah. I left out corruption. It seems the Ds are doing a pretty good job of improving on the Republican's record.
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djolds1
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Postby djolds1 » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:39 am

MSimon wrote:Stay the Course pretty much worked in Iraq.

No. The surge worked. "Stay the course" was the 2 year annii horrendus of Jan 2005-Jan 2007 that cratered Bush/GOP credibility with the center.

Going into the 2004 elections I expected a "surge equivalent" and Rumsfeld canned starting early 2005. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine the idiots staring into the headlights for 2 years.

MSimon wrote:Katrina was a failure of local government (underwater buses?).

Irrelevant. Bush was the national leader and this was a national scale disaster. When the locals failed it was his job to kick ass and take names. And what did he do? He flew over the city. Percpetion matters, and after that the perception was "incompetent." For good reason. The impression of the GOP since Nixon had been "evil geniuses." But with the drumroll of 2005-2008:

Miers.
Katrina.
Endless Iraq.
Amnesty.

the impression shifted to "pitiful idiots." And deservedly so.

Bush stopped fund raising for the Party after he was spanked over Miers (aka Souter 2). Spite over the peons daring to offend the nobility. But it was especially Amnesty that shattered the base. The base spanked the institutional Party in the 2006 midterms, and instead of trying to make up the formal party turned around and gave its membership the finger, called its own membership racists... I know committed conservatives who left the GOP after that. Some offenses are not forgiven.

MSimon wrote:How do I know this? Well, I don't have to depend on Pravda and Izvestia. Now a lot of folks are still buying that junk. But think of it: The New York Times is essentially bankrupt. The landscape is going to be very different in 2012.

As I said, decent odds on effects in 2012, but not 2010.

Duane
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djolds1
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Postby djolds1 » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:04 am

MSimon wrote:The Republican Party has to decide if it is culturally based or economics based.

"Wall Street Uber Alles" idolatry (sometimes misnamed "Free Market Fundamentalism") has died in the last year. The judgment against "deregulation" is general across the entire population. It is not coming back, so write it off and use the new dirigiste system to advantage.

Any future rests in "Gen Y Conservatism." Gen Y women are turning out to be far more socially conservative than their late Boomer and Gen X mothers like. That will happen when you're the child abandoned at home, latch key, while mommy goes out to "find herself." At the same time, this is not Christian Coalition Godshouter social conservatism. Gen Y is fine with gay marriage, but also wants near-analogues of traditional social institutions. IOW only monogamous gay marriage. Polyamorists need not apply. They do want a populist social safety net (New Deal) which forces social unity, but not centrifugal social programs (Great Society) that tear the polity apart.

Duane
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Postby MSimon » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:18 am

Duane,

The Banks were nationalized with the creation of the Federal Reserve. And I'm OK with that. On the whole the benefits exceed the costs.

But industrial policy rewards failure. It doesn't weed out the marginal players. If Chrysler had been allowed to fail GM might be in better shape. Or not.

Still when I speak of economic conservatives I'm thinking more along the lines of limiting taxes and spending.

And I think a safety net is a good idea. It is the traditional way governments buy internal peace. Because revolutions are bad for business. But the safety net should bind. It should not be comfortable.
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djolds1
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Postby djolds1 » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:37 am

MSimon wrote:The Banks were nationalized with the creation of the Federal Reserve. And I'm OK with that. On the whole the benefits exceed the costs.

Wall Street has been romanticized (viz, Gordon Gekko) and allowed to run riot for 30 years. That is over now. And reregulating finance is not a bad idea, there are too many corrupt incentives, and high finance is a "private" sector serving a government function; it creates money.

MSimon wrote:But industrial policy rewards failure. It doesn't weed out the marginal players. If Chrysler had been allowed to fail GM might be in better shape. Or not.

True. But its already a done deal. Thirty years of complaints over deindustrialization are finally coming home to roost. No one cared during fat times; times are no longer soaked in hydrogenated lipids.

MSimon wrote:Still when I speak of economic conservatives I'm thinking more along the lines of limiting taxes and spending.

That brand of conservatism is a death penalty convict; dead man, walking. "Lower taxes" is a religious mantra on the right that no longer pulls in anyone beyond the Ron Paul loons. Most people are now satisfied with their general level of taxation, and willing to pay a bit more for desired services. IMO the Democrats will take that and go too far in the next four years. Conservatives either drop the "taxes" mantra and realign as a populist party, or the Dems smarten up c. 2014 and repackage.
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ravingdave
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Postby ravingdave » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:51 pm

djolds1 wrote:
MSimon wrote:Stay the Course pretty much worked in Iraq.

No. The surge worked. "Stay the course" was the 2 year annii horrendus of Jan 2005-Jan 2007 that cratered Bush/GOP credibility with the center.

Going into the 2004 elections I expected a "surge equivalent" and Rumsfeld canned starting early 2005. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine the idiots staring into the headlights for 2 years.




I got to go with you on this one. The war was fought brilliantly, the victory was governed idiotically. I remember yelling at my radio when I heard Paul Bremer float the idea of disbanding the Iraqi army and kicking all the Bath party members out of government. Had we not been so arrogant after our conquest, we would not have had to deal with several years of insurgency. We never had nearly enough troops in that country to implement some of the stupid ideas we tried.

This was absolutely Bush's fault.


djolds1 wrote:
MSimon wrote:Katrina was a failure of local government (underwater buses?).

Irrelevant. Bush was the national leader and this was a national scale disaster. When the locals failed it was his job to kick ass and take names. And what did he do? He flew over the city. Percpetion matters, and after that the perception was "incompetent."


I'll have to go with MSimon on this one. The reality of the United States is that states must request federal aid, especially aid rendered by the military. Otherwise, the Federal government is interfering in state affairs in violation of the 9th and 10th amendments of the U.S. Constitution. (as well as other laws.) The Ugly facts are, the Government officials in Louisiana were incompetent, and fully unprepared to deal with anything remotely like Katrina. Notice how well Texas officials handled Katrina, as well as that Hurricane that recently wiped out Galveston.

The perception was entirely the result of how the Media spun the story. They intentionally exonerated the idiot Democrats in Louisiana government, and continuously attacked George Bush as being at fault. This CREATED the perception in the public mind.



djolds1 wrote:For good reason. The impression of the GOP since Nixon had been "evil geniuses." But with the drumroll of 2005-2008:

Miers.
Katrina.
Endless Iraq.
Amnesty.

the impression shifted to "pitiful idiots." And deservedly so.

Bush stopped fund raising for the Party after he was spanked over Miers (aka Souter 2). Spite over the peons daring to offend the nobility. But it was especially Amnesty that shattered the base. The base spanked the institutional Party in the 2006 midterms, and instead of trying to make up the formal party turned around and gave its membership the finger, called its own membership racists... I know committed conservatives who left the GOP after that. Some offenses are not forgiven.


George Bush was (like his father) one of those Squishy Republicans. Apparently these guys just can't understand the idea of certain principles being inviolable. (Read My lips, No New TAXES!) Both of them, through lack of being true to Conservative Principles, opened the door for Absolutely horrible people to succeed them. If our country gets destroyed, it's not going to be because of dangers from Iraq or Al Qaeda, its going to be because we destroyed the heart of what makes the country function by allowing an evil ideology to rule us.


djolds1 wrote:
MSimon wrote:How do I know this? Well, I don't have to depend on Pravda and Izvestia. Now a lot of folks are still buying that junk. But think of it: The New York Times is essentially bankrupt. The landscape is going to be very different in 2012.

As I said, decent odds on effects in 2012, but not 2010.

Duane



Government, for Democrats, is their Hearts desire. Government, for Republicans, is Self Defense. True conservatives only go into government reluctantly.(i.e. Tom Coburn) You can't beat somebody with nobody. Who is there on the Horizon that could credibly run for President on the Republican side ? No one I can think of.

I say we win some in 2010, (unless things REALLY go to hell, then we win a lot), and in 2012 we run a nobody, and they get beat by Barack who will still receive over a billion dollars worth of free Media advertising and campaign snark. (Unless things get REALLY bad, in which case all bets are off.)


David


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