EMC2 news

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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ladajo
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby ladajo » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:47 pm

The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Skipjack
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby Skipjack » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:23 pm

Last edited by Skipjack on Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mvanwink5
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby mvanwink5 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:25 pm

Not an engineer, lawyer?
Near term, cheap, dark horse fusion hits the air waves, GF - TED, LM - Announcement. The race is on.

Skipjack
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby Skipjack » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:29 pm

Last edited by Skipjack on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Skipjack
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby Skipjack » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:29 pm


mvanwink5
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby mvanwink5 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:13 pm

Near term, cheap, dark horse fusion hits the air waves, GF - TED, LM - Announcement. The race is on.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby Skipjack » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:17 pm

Last edited by Skipjack on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

D Tibbets
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby D Tibbets » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:19 pm

To error is human... and I'm very human.

mvanwink5
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby mvanwink5 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:30 pm

My cousin is a lawyer, smart guy, ms is very short time for him though. The hubris was too thick but you are a saint to oversee it.
Near term, cheap, dark horse fusion hits the air waves, GF - TED, LM - Announcement. The race is on.

Skipjack
Posts: 6051
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby Skipjack » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:55 pm

Last edited by Skipjack on Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Skipjack
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby Skipjack » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:57 pm


mvanwink5
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby mvanwink5 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:53 pm

The second and most difficult issue with the plasma is stability with compression, and scaling will push both issues. Tri Alpha's success is far greater than you have grasped (in all respects, keep digging) and the tricks used are not simple. So, have some respect for the plasma devil. :twisted:
Near term, cheap, dark horse fusion hits the air waves, GF - TED, LM - Announcement. The race is on.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby Skipjack » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:00 pm


ladajo
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby ladajo » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:49 pm

The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

D Tibbets
Posts: 2775
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:52 am
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Re: EMC2 news

Postby D Tibbets » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:47 pm

Some personal integrity attacks on both sides, and a brief rant by me. Please do not let this thread degrade into a personality based arguement. I admit that in some cases the messanger can be disregarded, but the threshold should be high. Rossi certainly meets this threshold (nuff said). Others have been attacked with much less public insight . Art Carlson once tried to label Eric Learner's work as bad science. He eventually abandoned the effort for what ever reason. LLP has since demonstrated significant results and insights. That does not mean his efforts will suceed from a physics standpoint or engineering standpoint, but it is promising.

Back to relevant (I hope) arguments. 35 KeV seems low, for D-He3, I would expect target temperatures closer to ~ 80 KeV. 35 KeV would be good for D-T, poor for D-D, but bordering on dismal for D-He3 (based on viewing cross section grafts and corresponding Bremsstruhlung rates. Bussard pointed out in one paper that about 5 KeV was the absolute minimum for D-T fusion output yield to exceed Bremsstruhlung losses, even with assumed perfect particle confinement. Other fuels have higher minimal (and for that matter maximum) temperatures for the window where fusion output can exceed Bremsstruhlung losses.

Interestingly, diluting the high Z component of the fuel may help in the fusion to Bremsstruhlung ratio. This may be applied to P-B11 fusion (more protons). D-He3 fuel though has competing problems. To suppress D-D side reactions (that produce neutrons) the higher Z He3 is maintained in excess. This would increase the Bremsstruhlung loss ratio. A Z of 2 is better than a Z of 5 but still...

A few milliseconds of confinement time being adiquate, especially for the ion population which I assume has loss rates similar to the electrons in FRC machines, implies that the density (especially without some type of spherical confluence that is at least possible with Polywells)) is higher. With the Polywell density advertised as ~ 10^22/ cubic meter, ion confinement times of at least 20 ms is needed, perhaps 100's of milliseconds. Admittedly, in the Polywell the losses (ignoring the Bremsstruhlung issues)are dominated by the electron losses, which may remain in the low millisecond time frame. How the balance between the FRC and Polywell plays out is uncertain from a density versus confinement time interaction. In any case with a few millisecond confinement time the density has to be high , probably above 10^22/ M^3 for useful amounts of fusion to occur in these small machines. Both triple product considerations and practical power output considerations are important. This is one of the major problems with the classical Tokamak. It can possibly produce large amounts of fusion power but at the cost of nearly as large amounts of losses and huge cost for each unit of excess power, and associated problems of trying to distribute the concentrated node power, not to mention the intermittent nature of any approach- there will always be down time for various reasons. Another plant would have to take up the slack. For smaller, cheaper machines like Polywell, FRC- pulsed or steady state, DPF, and probably several other potential approaches are much more manageable. A down machine represents a smaller bite in the necessary load demands.

The comment about persueing D-T as an admission of inferiority is an uncertain assessment. Dr Parks has advertised this as the next goal towards demonstrating excess power in a Polywell. It is certainly easier, but I wonder how much of it is based on this assessment or the need to match the prejudices of the audience. The entrenched Tokamak mindset conceives of D-T being the only possible fuel, asking for support for other approaches diminishes the legitimacy of the project in some eyes. This is one reason FRC languished for over a decade; perception, not hard evidence (experiment) dominated the funding decisions. It appears that the perception that high Beta may be good but was unobtainable lead to the abandonment of some cusp machine approaches. Bussards, Parks, etels efforts to do this and Park' success in firmly demonstrating this are game changers. FRC advances, and perhaps DPF advances, despite mainstream disdain is similar. Which approach, none, one or several works is yet to be determined. All are relatively cheap in comparison, and all offer the potential to be much cheaper to implement if they work for actual electricity production.
The engineering and application issues may end up being the deciding factor. For aneutronic fusion the Polywell has some tricks that may benefit it. I don't know how the FRC handles these issues (as well). Spherical convergence, and energy distribution of electrons associated with an electrostatic potential well are significant advantages. Could some of these electrostatic considerations be applied to FRC?

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.


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