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MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:15 am


Mike Holmes
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Postby Mike Holmes » Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:58 pm


Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:08 pm


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Postby Skipjack » Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:22 pm


Mike Holmes
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Postby Mike Holmes » Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:58 pm


Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:29 pm


Helius
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Postby Helius » Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:00 pm


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Postby Mike Holmes » Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:02 pm

More straw men. You attack annecdotal evidence after I've already rejected it. We agree. Where are you going with that? Are you denying that your arguments are based on annecdotal evidence? You keep posting things like, "I have seen the same affect [sic] in people that consume marijuana."

Let me try this again. You seem to propose that you have some sort of superior "real world" experience with such people, and that this supports your point. But then you condemn other's annecdotal evidence. I said that we need to jettison that anecdotal evidence, but you then attack back with "I know scientists..."

I'm saying we need to kick to the curb our annecdotal evidence. Do you agree or not? Or does only yours count?

By the way, where is "here?" Are we talking the USA? I had wondered because I'm assuming that English is your second language (your writing constructions seem to indicate this, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt).

As for socialization, let's compare. What countries have a low incidence of addiction? Well, they tend to be places that are rather draconian about liberties overall. But, for instance, Islamic countries tend to have lower rates of addictions. This is, quite simply, because their belief system includes not only banning addictive substances, but replacing that need with things like five times daily prayer.

I'm not advocating that we become a religiously intolerant nation. Or a hard-line communist one like China. Those resorts would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But they do indicate that doing something in the lives of people does have an effect. Something more than simply throwing them in jail if the society doesn't help them with their problems.

In fact, when we disrupt this, and try to replace it with "freedom" the addiction problem increases: http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/ ... N=49024975

(note that this source would hardly tarnish the American brand if it could avoid it)

Message? Disrupt people's orderly socialized lives with war or displacement, and they turn to drugs. Conclusion? More work socializing people in stable environments means less drug use.

If, in fact, "here" is the USA, then look at an inner-city segment of any large American city, and tell me seriously that the people there feel enfranchised. To bring things slightly back on topic for the thread, in the recent election Obama was elected mostly by WHITE PEOPLE. Blacks certainly came out in record numbers, but still only a fraction of that population voted. Far less than the percentage of white people.

I don't disagree that "opportunity" is available in this country on a pretty good basis. But that's not at all like saying that we've incorporated all of the segments of society into our society in a fully functional manner.

Mike

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:08 pm

Helius, I agree, both is needed.
I am sorry if I come over offensive in my posts here at times, but drugs are one of these topics that make me very heated up.
The strange thing is that people were all upset about 9/11 and happily went to war about that, but as horrible as 9/11 was and as much a slapp into the face for all us western people, the victims there were few compared to the ones dying of drugs in the western world all the time.
That does not even count the ones killed by drug related crimes.
To me the drug mafia is a red towel. They are the worst of the worst. Slaviers, thats what they are. No worse, because they dont even leave people their minds and thoughts.

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:24 pm

I am sorry my english is not good enough to fool you ;)
Yes I am not from the US, but I have spent some time there. I am from central Europe and english is my second language.
My evidence is not purely annectodal, but I refuse to give details away as I do wish to keep certain circumstances of my personal life, including my social environment out of this discussion.
I am for a lot of freedom, but there is a difference between freedom and anarchy. Allowing something that is as disruptive to society as heroin to be legal is anarchy and not freedom.
I mean I might just as well ask for the "freedom" to shoot drug dealers at will (please excuse the sarkasm), right? This would be just as anarchistic. There are laws for a reason.
The first duties of a government is protection of its citizens to threads from the outside and the inside. Drugs threaten lives. To protect the lives of the citizens drugs need to be banned and fought, just like any other agressor would be. They are just like terrorists, actually many terrorist orginazations get their money from drugs.

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:27 pm

talking about looking at inner cities in the US. I am not a big fan of the US right- wing, but Rudy Giuliani pretty much showed how to do it there. He did make New York a better and saver place.

Chuck Connors
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Postby Chuck Connors » Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:57 pm


Mike Holmes
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Postby Mike Holmes » Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:21 pm


Roger
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Postby Roger » Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:28 pm

I like the p-B11 resonance peak at 50 KV acceleration. In2 years we'll know.

Chuck Connors
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Postby Chuck Connors » Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:41 pm



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