Zeitgeist addendum, project venus

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Betruger
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Zeitgeist addendum, project venus

Postby Betruger » Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:21 pm

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7695921912
2 hours long and the ending is very corny (and they go against religion unnecessarily), but take it and remove the 911 conspiracy and all the other kooky stuff, including the collectivist tendencies...

Is the currency/debt scheme really like they describe? Are the alternative economics they present viable? Is the alternative energy tally really what they say it is, e.g. enough energy to replace current dirty and inefficient (comparatively) sources using one of or a bit of each of the alternatives (solar, wind, tidal, wave, geothermal)?

Betruger
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Postby Betruger » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:50 pm


MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:52 am

It fails where all these schemes fail: There IS No New Man waiting in the wings who will behave differently than the old man.

What ever system we have has to work with the old man.

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Postby MSimon » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:57 am

The film does have a point that I did like: money is based on faith. That is the truth from gold bullion to paper dollars. The question is: how much faith? Pyrites or real gold?

And yeah. Something is wrong. It is not the money though. It is bad government.

Now any one wish to step up to the plate and improve governance in Africa?

I hear Barack Obama Sr. had a good plan.

BTW the film is an total exercise in propaganda. - i.e. your job is to feel guilty. Not to worry. They will tell you what to think with out all that nasty math. Economics without numbers. Because they love you.

Slaves to money. Once there is money slavery is inevitable. Are they joking?

I'll give it to you in a nutshell: the left fears money and the right fears pleasure. Both fears are irrational.

Ron Paul Says we have no savings. Which is technically true. Instead we have farm tractors. Milling machines. Nuclear reactors etc. Much more valuable than savings.

BTW they have neglected to mention that it is the job of the Federal reserve to increase the money supply enough so that it matches increased production plus about 1 to 2% so inflation is slow. The only way to beat dollar inflation is to either use the money quickly or invest it in some profit making scheme. Seems like a good idea to me.

===

First big stupidity: Expanding the money supply is inherently inflationary. No. It is not. Expanding the supply faster than increases in production is inflationary. Similarly and expansion at a rate slower than the increase in production is deflationary.

Perpetual debt is guaranteed. So? As long as you need to eat you will be in debt. Dependent on next years sunshine.

The question is not who owns and who owes. The question is: given the inputs how high are the outputs?

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Re: Zeitgeist addendum, project venus

Postby MSimon » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:35 am


Betruger
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Postby Betruger » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:51 am

I don't remember the exact details because I've never studied economics (always seemed like voodoo to me, I'm at home in more solid science) so for now all that conjecture is swimming in an uncorrelated soup of notions in my head, but by the end of the week, if you don't feel up to wading thru the documentation, I'll find some free time after studying and I'll post a brief digest of the two alternatives they propose (of the guy in the film and the guys he's worked with for a bit). Thanks already :)

I don't really care for the guilt bait.. Same thing with the rest of the bogus stuff like the 911 conspiracy and the awful last dozen minutes or so. I didn't find it too hard to ignore because none of those points were central to the main arguments: vaporware currency and the technocratic resource-based economics alternative they propose.

Otherwise, I thought the same as you. That the system still will have to contend with bad apples; their saying crime disappears with abundence just doesn't ring true). That money is based on faith. I think ownership itself is a leap of faith too, though.
I'm also still not seeing how any money based system inevitably leads to slavery.. Except in the sense that profit margins generated from sale price (instead of production price) are asking for more than the product is worth.. But if everyone does it (as they should, gotta make a living), it's an even playing ground.
Same thing with competition, and with their insistence for collectivism.

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Postby MSimon » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:59 am

All the alternative systems assume a rational basis for decision making.

i.e. steak is more valuable than beans. But what if I'm sick and tired of steak?

No truly rational system can deal with the range of human values.

i.e. suffering is good for the soul vs suffering is bad for the life expectancy. Care to quantify that?

Betruger
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Postby Betruger » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:16 am

See, that's why I crossed out economics right off the bat when I was choosing what I'd make a career in.

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Postby MSimon » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:24 am


Nanos
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Postby Nanos » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:00 am


Aero
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Postby Aero » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:22 pm

Well I don't know about all of that but I do know there's something wrong when the top 100 state employees in Iowa knock down almost $40 million. The 100-th on the list is paid $289,444.02 salary and another $9,284.87 Travel & Subsistence. Of course its no fun to be on the road so the travel is legit. And I suppose the $2.7 million paid to the head coach is justifiable by some lights, just not mine.
The rest of the salaries range from $695,743.04 down to $290,674.96 paid with our tax dollars (Iowa). These are state employees, 40 hours a week, it doesn't matter to me that they work at the medical college in Iowa City and may have their MD degree. If they want the big bucks, they should go into private practice and work the hours, they shouldn't get it from the tax payer for lecturing and grading papers.
Oh, there is not a politician on the list.
Aero

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Postby Aero » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:31 pm

OH and if you would like to see the data, here's the link.
Aero

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Postby MSimon » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:35 pm


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Postby rcain » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:20 pm


Nanos
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Postby Nanos » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:30 pm

> I'm sure you can keep the alpha males out of simulations.

They show up there as they do anyplace. (Wouldn't be much of a simulation if you excluded certain parties :-) )


> And how do you handle imbalances? Like say you need more doctors

That particularly interests me, as I reckon there will be shortages, but in practice maybe not, lets experiment with a MMORPG and find out..


> Who will know you are not doing your best?

Your manager perhaps..


> Since no matter how well or poorly you perform you get
> paid the same wage

Poorly performing workers could be sacked as of today.


> please explain why the USSR failed

I wish I knew :-)

It interests me to understand why various approaches in history have failed, or are failing.


> should have made the Soviets the uncontested rulers of the world
> no later than 1989.

Maybe they are just taking their time..


What specific lessons can we learn from the mistakes of both the USSR and the USA, I imagine it can be hard to dig deep enough to find the real reasons behind failures.


With so much unemployment, Joe the Plumber only needs to work a little bit, rather than a lot, as the slack can be taken up by some of the unemployed..


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