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http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/a ... ?series=19
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So what has been holding back EVs? Cost. Range. Charge time. Charge availability. Battery chemistry.
Not a GM plot.
Note also that the vehicle available to fleets in 2012 would be considered a pre-production prototype. i.e. production in the multi 1,000s range.
Why fleets? So they can come back to the fleet garage for recharge.
Nissan Electric Vehicle
Nissan Electric Vehicle
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
That Cube is pretty cool, 100 mile range would be killer.
MSimon, I think GM taking those EV's back, is what started all the rumors/theories.
I would think if EV owners signed a release, GM should have worked something out.
MSimon, I think GM taking those EV's back, is what started all the rumors/theories.
I would think if EV owners signed a release, GM should have worked something out.
I like the p-B11 resonance peak at 50 KV acceleration. In2 years we'll know.
The problem for GM is the liability and requirements for spare parts over life. It was a test program not a real vehicle.Roger wrote:That Cube is pretty cool, 100 mile range would be killer.
MSimon, I think GM taking those EV's back, is what started all the rumors/theories.
I would think if EV owners signed a release, GM should have worked something out.
GM has deep pockets (relatively), there would have been lawsuits. Esp. if the vehicles were resold. What GM did wrong was in not explaining all their reasons for ending the program. The reason GM got into the business the way it did was California government rules. What a waste.
Right now an electric vehicle is a third or fourth car. A toy. A status symbol. The real transition vehicle for >95% of the population is the plug in hybrid. This is going to take decades to work out.
And then there is the winter problem. Lower battery output. Keeping the passengers warm.
As you know 99% of the population is ignorant of the problems of engineering. The worst are the lawyers in the legislature. Too much power coupled with ignorance. It is the old "I saw a laboratory prototype, why aren't these things being mass produced?" I expect the same stuff relative to BFRs if we get to net power. Plus lots of lawsuits to prevent them from getting deployed in the USA.
But people love conspiracy theories. You can't stop them.
It is the old problem of any sufficiently advanced technology is Magic to the average person.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
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Mike Holmes
- Posts: 308
- Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:15 pm
I think you may be right, M, but it's unfortunate. That is, if/when I get access to a machine that goes 100 miles on an overnight charge, at a reasonable highway speed, I will buy one. And it will be my primary means of transportation for my daily commute.
Oh, I may have to hold off for a while for one reason, you're right. The price. But that'll be high only if the market doesn't take to these vehicles as they should. A mass-market model that was relatively cheap should be a no-brainer purchase for the vast majority of people who just need a commuter vehicle. The cost of ownership over time is simply far, far less for an EV. You're an engineer, do the math.
And, yes, I'm considering the cost of replacement batteries, too. Many of the producers are coming up with schemes that manage that "problem" in various ways.
This also assumes that technology will not improve on charging times and/or endurance. Which it will. Heck, if the Eestor people aren't frauds (who knows), then EVs are going to be too economical and convienient for anyone to ignore. As in EVs will be superior to ICE vehicles in practically every dimension.
What will delay the price drop is acceptance of the notion that your car might not go more than 100 miles on a charge that takes 8 hours. It's just not what we expect out of a car. Not for any reasonable reason. Simply what we're used to.
I look forward to a time when my second car will be the gas-burner that I keep around for when I need a second car, and for long trips for which the commuter will be unviable. To the day when the gas-burners are the toys. And then to the day when they become as obsolete as the horse and carriage.
I only hope that most people can overcome their preconceptions to make it a reality in something less than "decades." But you may be right. That would be an awful shame.
Sure, it's a conspiracy theory that GM did what they did for anything other than economics reasons. But technology has progressed in the intervening... what now... decade... since the EV1 was out. And not just GM, but many, many more producers are coming out with EVs that sure as heck appear to be looking to reach more than just a toy market. Every big auto-maker has plans for EVs, and a dozen or so smaller producers are looking to be in the hunt as well.
The EVs are coming. And gas prices (peak oil or no), combined with international security concerns, are going to bring them faster than they would otherwise be adopted. I'm going to hold out a, perhaps, Pollyanna optimism that people will see the benefits, and costs will be reasonable in relatively short order.
My current vehicles have lots and lots of miles on them. I'm holding out on getting anything new until I can buy a reasonable electric vehicle.
A real question is whether or not Plug-in Hybrid electrics will have a short day in the sun. Sure it solves a lot of problems, but those will be expensive by the mere nature of the design. Two power plants seems very inefficient.
Mike
Oh, I may have to hold off for a while for one reason, you're right. The price. But that'll be high only if the market doesn't take to these vehicles as they should. A mass-market model that was relatively cheap should be a no-brainer purchase for the vast majority of people who just need a commuter vehicle. The cost of ownership over time is simply far, far less for an EV. You're an engineer, do the math.
And, yes, I'm considering the cost of replacement batteries, too. Many of the producers are coming up with schemes that manage that "problem" in various ways.
This also assumes that technology will not improve on charging times and/or endurance. Which it will. Heck, if the Eestor people aren't frauds (who knows), then EVs are going to be too economical and convienient for anyone to ignore. As in EVs will be superior to ICE vehicles in practically every dimension.
What will delay the price drop is acceptance of the notion that your car might not go more than 100 miles on a charge that takes 8 hours. It's just not what we expect out of a car. Not for any reasonable reason. Simply what we're used to.
I look forward to a time when my second car will be the gas-burner that I keep around for when I need a second car, and for long trips for which the commuter will be unviable. To the day when the gas-burners are the toys. And then to the day when they become as obsolete as the horse and carriage.
I only hope that most people can overcome their preconceptions to make it a reality in something less than "decades." But you may be right. That would be an awful shame.
Sure, it's a conspiracy theory that GM did what they did for anything other than economics reasons. But technology has progressed in the intervening... what now... decade... since the EV1 was out. And not just GM, but many, many more producers are coming out with EVs that sure as heck appear to be looking to reach more than just a toy market. Every big auto-maker has plans for EVs, and a dozen or so smaller producers are looking to be in the hunt as well.
The EVs are coming. And gas prices (peak oil or no), combined with international security concerns, are going to bring them faster than they would otherwise be adopted. I'm going to hold out a, perhaps, Pollyanna optimism that people will see the benefits, and costs will be reasonable in relatively short order.
My current vehicles have lots and lots of miles on them. I'm holding out on getting anything new until I can buy a reasonable electric vehicle.
A real question is whether or not Plug-in Hybrid electrics will have a short day in the sun. Sure it solves a lot of problems, but those will be expensive by the mere nature of the design. Two power plants seems very inefficient.
Mike
Small Lithium Ion batteries sell in the hundreds of millions. Have you priced them?The price. But that'll be high only if the market doesn't take to these vehicles as they should.
We will need some break throughs/evolution to get the price down.
Tesla claims to be coming out with an $80K or $70K version. Good. Still not good enough.
BTW a plug in hybrid is the way to go. It gives you options. One of them is a smaller battery.
The change you want will not come over night. Despite what some politicians promise.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
In the Chevy Volt design the Electrics replace the transmission. They have the right idea.A real question is whether or not Plug-in Hybrid electrics will have a short day in the sun. Sure it solves a lot of problems, but those will be expensive by the mere nature of the design. Two power plants seems very inefficient.
Give the customer what they want.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Some technologies begins it way in to market with expensive and not special good products as “toys or status symbols” for rich people. I was so for the car and for the cell-phone. But the rich people financed the development to bring useful and cheap products for all people. It can be so for EV to, I hope.
Excellent point and one I have made often.Torulf2 wrote:Some technologies begins it way in to market with expensive and not special good products as “toys or status symbols” for rich people. I was so for the car and for the cell-phone. But the rich people financed the development to bring useful and cheap products for all people. It can be so for EV to, I hope.
Is your attitude common in Europe?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
MSimonMSimon wrote: <snip>
Plus lots of lawsuits to prevent them from getting deployed in the USA.
I had the same thought. Mine is rather vague though – desperate organizations that have no other way to survive fueling lawsuits and, maybe, vandalism. Do have more specific ideas? Perhaps you can name some specific groups and people? Why do you think some people would fight this?
In the UK they allow you to build a 15mph pedal assisted electric vehicle, and since we got rid of our car a few years ago now due to rising petrol prices, insurance costs, parking difficulties and general maintence costs.
We are looking to build our own 3 wheel vehicle, 2 seater in an enclosed canopy, with eventually the idea to add on solar panels so we can be mains free charging.
As the law limits us to a 60kg weight limit vehicle, this should be light enough for us to lift and park it in our front garden and thus solve one of the issues of lack of street parking and costs.
Its main purposes will be as a daily commute vehicle to and from work which is currently an hours walk away each way. And shopping which is also a similar distance. But as we are allowed to cycle it faster than the 15mph electric motor limit (250w) we also hope to use it for long journies such as countrywide holidays, rather than spending a fortune renting a car.
I'm also considering the idea that rather than make a one off for ourselves, of trying to design it using off the shelf parts so it could be either given away as plans, sold in a kit form, or manufactored and sold at around the $2,000 to $4,000 price bracket which I reckon there is a market for here in cheap electric vehicles. (There happens to be at the end of my road the main UK electric vehicle importer doing G-Wiz's and they are selling ok at around $8,000+ in limited numbers.)
Though I reckon your need to fit a really loud horn as such vehicles are really quiet and its hard enough to drive around London as it is with people crossing the road in front of you with a death wish!
We are looking to build our own 3 wheel vehicle, 2 seater in an enclosed canopy, with eventually the idea to add on solar panels so we can be mains free charging.
As the law limits us to a 60kg weight limit vehicle, this should be light enough for us to lift and park it in our front garden and thus solve one of the issues of lack of street parking and costs.
Its main purposes will be as a daily commute vehicle to and from work which is currently an hours walk away each way. And shopping which is also a similar distance. But as we are allowed to cycle it faster than the 15mph electric motor limit (250w) we also hope to use it for long journies such as countrywide holidays, rather than spending a fortune renting a car.
I'm also considering the idea that rather than make a one off for ourselves, of trying to design it using off the shelf parts so it could be either given away as plans, sold in a kit form, or manufactored and sold at around the $2,000 to $4,000 price bracket which I reckon there is a market for here in cheap electric vehicles. (There happens to be at the end of my road the main UK electric vehicle importer doing G-Wiz's and they are selling ok at around $8,000+ in limited numbers.)
Though I reckon your need to fit a really loud horn as such vehicles are really quiet and its hard enough to drive around London as it is with people crossing the road in front of you with a death wish!
What you need to do is record the sound of a Harley motorcycle on a chip and play it back as you motor along. If you want to get fancy adjust the playback speed according to you vehicle speed. It would be a safety feature and a hoot. :-)Though I reckon your need to fit a really loud horn as such vehicles are really quiet and its hard enough to drive around London as it is with people crossing the road in front of you with a death wish!
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
May I suggest a three wheel vehicle with the front two wheels driven (two DC motors with encoders to act as an electric differential) and a third wheel in the rear for steering. That could be cable controlled or drive by wire.
Look up Bucky Fuller's Dymaxion vehicle for some ideas.
Look up Bucky Fuller's Dymaxion vehicle for some ideas.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.