Flags ...

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Tom Ligon
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Flags ...

Post by Tom Ligon »

It is interesting just how we respond to flags today.

The Confederate Battle Flag is in the news today, amid protests to ban it. This is the same flag that adorned the General Lee in "The Dukes of Hazard," back when everybody knew it stood for redneck rebelliousness.

This is in stark contrast to the big one I saw flying proudly behind a pickup truck a couple of hours ago down in Remington, VA. This was no little antenna-flag, but about 3' x 5', a full Jolly Roger, the skull and crossbones on a black field. These days it is a cute Disney souvenir. A couple of centuries back, flying one of these would have gotten you hung. No joke.

Speaking of black flags, we detest the one ISIL has adopted. They didn't invent it. Watch "Lawrence of Arabia", and you'll see a black flag with Islamic verses, as well as several other colors.

Germany adopted the Swastika. Up until then it had been a harmless symbol found various places around the world, including being a motif in Navajo art. Now you can't display that blanket your granddaddy bought in the 1930's without a long explanation.

After 9-11, I started flying a Culpeper Militia flag, the rattlesnake with the Don't Tread On Me motto. That was a message for the people who had just tread on us. It fit with my Rattlesnake Ridge Research lab name. Then the Tea Party adopted it. Then the Tea Party was taken over by "social conservatives". Now I don't fly that flag because I'm a libertarian and social conservatives rankle me.

What else have we lost? Remember when our hearts were young and gay and that meant happy?

Tom Ligon
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Re: Flags ...

Post by Tom Ligon »

And now the Washington Post contributes another little tidbit:

New poll finds 9 in 10 Native Americans aren’t offended by Redskins name

https://www.washingtonpost.com/page/201 ... ?tid=a_inl

Q: The professional football team in Washington calls itself the Washington Redskins. As a Native American, do you find that name offensive, or doesn't it bother you? (9% of American Indians say it bothers them, 1% have no opinion, 90% are not bothered)

So, does this mean all the fanatics with team flags flying to tatters on their cars can keep flying them to tatters?

Me, I don't care. I do, on occasion, wonder how Native Americans would feel if the District of Columbia football team were re-named for Columbus. Some times you have to be careful what you wish for.

I do feel my heart sink when I see people flying the American flag to tatters on their cars, or on their flagpoles. But then again, I learned flag etiquette as a youngster, from a poster in my room. I was apparently the only person in my elementary school that did. In 6th grade, I raised and lowered the school flag. I pointed out to them that our 48-star flag was seriously obsolete. I also knew how to raise a flag to half-staff (raise to full staff briskly, then lower slowly to half staff ... in the evening, raise briskly from half staff to full staff, then slowly lower it). And I was the first person at the school to fold it properly.

paperburn1
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Re: Flags ...

Post by paperburn1 »

Swear allegiance to the flag
Whatever flag they offer
Never hint at what you really feel
Teach the children quietly
For some day sons and daughters
Will rise up and fight while we stood still -silent running
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Diogenes
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Re: Flags ...

Post by Diogenes »

Tom Ligon wrote: After 9-11, I started flying a Culpeper Militia flag, the rattlesnake with the Don't Tread On Me motto. That was a message for the people who had just tread on us. It fit with my Rattlesnake Ridge Research lab name. Then the Tea Party adopted it. Then the Tea Party was taken over by "social conservatives". Now I don't fly that flag because I'm a libertarian and social conservatives rankle me.

What else have we lost? Remember when our hearts were young and gay and that meant happy?

Libertarians rankle me. They seem to believe that you can have a functional financial system without a function moral system.


I guess the "thou shalt not steal" thing just flies right over their heads or something.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

kunkmiester
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Re: Flags ...

Post by kunkmiester »

A financial system without a moral system is pretty much what we have. That's why they need all the laws and regulations, they won't operate morally otherwise.

A libertarian financial system wouldn't be easy to transition to, a lot of people would have a lot to learn about how it works. It would be trading one set of evils for another, but unlike before, today there would be a lot more help for people to sue for fraud and other such solutions. That's something a lot of people don't get--just because it's not illegal doesn't mean you couldn't get sued for it, so you don't need a law or rule for every little situation.
Evil is evil, no matter how small

Diogenes
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Re: Flags ...

Post by Diogenes »

kunkmiester wrote:A financial system without a moral system is pretty much what we have. That's why they need all the laws and regulations, they won't operate morally otherwise.

It is what we have been transitioning into. We are still running on inertia from when people believed in right and wrong. When the day comes that people have no conscious incentive to do what is right, things will just get worse.


We see evidence of the separation of morality and finance in all sorts of news stories nowadays.


kunkmiester wrote: A libertarian financial system wouldn't be easy to transition to, a lot of people would have a lot to learn about how it works. It would be trading one set of evils for another, but unlike before, today there would be a lot more help for people to sue for fraud and other such solutions. That's something a lot of people don't get--just because it's not illegal doesn't mean you couldn't get sued for it, so you don't need a law or rule for every little situation.

I do not believe a Libertarian financial system can even exist. Society is a continuous whole, and the behavior of all parts of it are based on it's foundational assumptions. For example, Islam doesn't believe in Interest. This makes it a little tough to get loans. This aspect reverberates through their whole societal structure.

Our own system used to believe in this old bible adage, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground", which a lot of people interpreted as "If you don't work, you can't eat." The impact on society was that people believed work was natural and normal, and that people should perform work.

It also created the corollary, "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch."


Our system of governance has turned those ideas on their head, because we see all sorts of people who acquire money without working for it, be they financial wheeler dealers or people accepting government spoils or handouts, and we have acquired nearly 20 trillion in admitted debt, and probably over 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities.


But they don't have any intentions of paying any of those bills anyways. They are going to inflate the money to effectively steal back the value of those promised obligations. (among other dirty little tricks)

Our experimental foray into "libertarian" i.e. a-moral finances, are not "working." They just appear to most people as if they are working because the timeline of their collapse is so slow (glacial) people can't see it.

Our debt, and our current financial mess are the consequence of separating ideas of Morality from Fiscal issues. When people know and accept that they will have to pay back debt, they are much less inclined to acquire it in the first place. Much of the dysfunction of this nation is the result of what they have been doing with that money with which they created that debt.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

kunkmiester
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Re: Flags ...

Post by kunkmiester »

But we don't have a libertarian financial system we have a "crony capitalist" system, which is to say, a government regulated system with the "deregulation" suffering from regulatory capture and a variety of other malaise.

The big clue is the lack of prosecution aND jail time from the big financial scandals. On the lawful end of the libertarian spectrum even the politicians would have been prosecuted, and the leftist stupidity that led to the housing bubble wouldn't have happened in the first place really.

On the anarchist end, while there would have been few laws broken, there was massive fraud and large judgements would have basically transferred stock ownership to the victims. There would also be a high probability of violence.

I'm not sure where you're getting your definition of libertarian but it's not the one I've been working with.
Evil is evil, no matter how small

KitemanSA
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Re: Flags ...

Post by KitemanSA »

Diogenes wrote:
Tom Ligon wrote: After 9-11, I started flying a Culpeper Militia flag, the rattlesnake with the Don't Tread On Me motto. That was a message for the people who had just tread on us. It fit with my Rattlesnake Ridge Research lab name. Then the Tea Party adopted it. Then the Tea Party was taken over by "social conservatives". Now I don't fly that flag because I'm a libertarian and social conservatives rankle me.

What else have we lost? Remember when our hearts were young and gay and that meant happy?
Libertarians rankle me. They seem to believe that you can have a functional financial system without a function moral system.
I guess the "thou shalt not steal" thing just flies right over their heads or something.
What a load of crap. Just because your politics has the moral compass of a T-Rex doesn't mean that the adults who adhere to libertaianism are afflicted the same way. Libertarians have a very functional moral system, it just doesn't rely on what a bunch of tyranical Romans did to a very libertarian rabbi's words. Libertarians prefer his words unsullied. ;)

Diogenes
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Re: Flags ...

Post by Diogenes »

kunkmiester wrote:But we don't have a libertarian financial system we have a "crony capitalist" system, which is to say, a government regulated system with the "deregulation" suffering from regulatory capture and a variety of other malaise.

What other result do you expect from removing morality from finance? Isn't "cronyism" a moral issue? i.e. a failing to abide by the concept that all should be treated equal. (Bedrock Christian doctrine.)


This is what "Libertarian" attitudes do to finance. You toss out the moral admonishments, and you get immoral behavior.


kunkmiester wrote:
The big clue is the lack of prosecution aND jail time from the big financial scandals.

Exactly backwards. The primary solution is to insure that moral standards are understood and that everyone is expected to adhere to them. The "policing" idea only works when it's a small group of people causing troubles. When you allow the malefactors to grow into half the population or more, it becomes completely impractical to think you can police that many people.

Here's where I throw in one of my often used links. ("if you take away religion, you can’t hire enough police.”)

The Genius of Religion is that it gets everyone to police themselves. They are in effect, their own watcher. (But they think it is God.)






kunkmiester wrote:
On the lawful end of the libertarian spectrum even the politicians would have been prosecuted, and the leftist stupidity that led to the housing bubble wouldn't have happened in the first place really.

On the anarchist end, while there would have been few laws broken, there was massive fraud and large judgements would have basically transferred stock ownership to the victims. There would also be a high probability of violence.

I'm not sure where you're getting your definition of libertarian but it's not the one I've been working with.

I am reminded of the socialists who constantly tell us that all the failures we have witnessed in the history of socialism are all because those other people didn't really implement socialism.


This argument is in fact, a variation on the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.


Libertarianism, meaning the eschewing of moral requirements for a "live and let live" utopian society, is a non-functional system. It's one of those things that looks good in the short term, and seemingly would work conceptually, but which always collapses when it is tested in practice.



What is the primary failure of Communism? Why couldn't it produce goods and services of equal or superior quality to capitalism? It failed to take Human nature into account. It needed to be implemented in a group of humans who had a strong work ethic, but without greed or envy, in order to make it work.

There are no humans of this type, and you cannot create them with slogans and little red books. (Maybe with some bioengineering)

This is the exact same failure mode for Libertarianism. It requires people to behave as if they adhere to a moral code, but in the absence of a moral code. (As the founders would say, "Left in a state of nature." )

When there is no moral code, Humans naturally try to gravitate towards trying to create and maintain some sort of advantage over their fellow man. Only morality holds them back. People in nature really do believe in slavery. They think it is completely natural that others should serve them, and that they should do as they like.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Diogenes
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Re: Flags ...

Post by Diogenes »

KitemanSA wrote:
Diogenes wrote: Libertarians rankle me. They seem to believe that you can have a functional financial system without a function moral system.
I guess the "thou shalt not steal" thing just flies right over their heads or something.
What a load of crap. Just because your politics has the moral compass of a T-Rex doesn't mean that the adults who adhere to libertaianism are afflicted the same way. Libertarians have a very functional moral system, it just doesn't rely on what a bunch of tyranical Romans did to a very libertarian rabbi's words. Libertarians prefer his words unsullied. ;)

Well what does it rely on then? From whence do you get it?

I know most human instinct is to murder and/or enslave people, so i'm kinda interested in how you propose to suppress this very natural tendency of the Human organism.


If your system can convince people not to do these things, we need to preach it from the mountaintops! Enlighten us oh Prophet!
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

KitemanSA
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Re: Flags ...

Post by KitemanSA »

Hey folks, any body here ever slavered to go out and kill and enslave? Isn't that mainly the provence of government?

Diogenes
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Re: Flags ...

Post by Diogenes »

KitemanSA wrote:Hey folks, any body here ever slavered to go out and kill and enslave? Isn't that mainly the provence of government?


So you're not going to answer the question then?
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Betruger
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Re: Flags ...

Post by Betruger »

Diogenes wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:Hey folks, any body here ever slavered to go out and kill and enslave? Isn't that mainly the provence of government?


So you're not going to answer the question then?
You could instead account for the silent majority of non homicidal maniacs. Maybe the question should be why you're so blind to that.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

kunkmiester
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Re: Flags ...

Post by kunkmiester »

Been a busy couple of days. Been wanting to type this post up on the desktop but haven't really had time. Probably tonight or tomorrow.
Evil is evil, no matter how small

Diogenes
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Re: Flags ...

Post by Diogenes »

Betruger wrote:
Diogenes wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:Hey folks, any body here ever slavered to go out and kill and enslave? Isn't that mainly the provence of government?


So you're not going to answer the question then?
You could instead account for the silent majority of non homicidal maniacs. Maybe the question should be why you're so blind to that.

I am constantly confronted by people who cannot seem to grasp conceptually what the world and history looks like outside the narrow scope of their modern lives.

Do you think all that past stuff was an aberration? No, that's the norm. This artificial peace we are currently enjoying is a temporary lull in the violence.


I'll point out what Heinlein had to say on the subject.
The capacity of the human mind for swallowing nonsense and spewing it forth in violent and repressive action has never yet been plumbed.
Also:
“Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as "bad luck.”

People need to stop measuring mankind by what they have seen in their own lifetimes. Even nowadays, if you are in the wrong parts of the world, the brutality of man is still manifesting itself in all sorts of cruel ways.


Brutality is the natural instinct of man, and i'm still waiting to hear about this Libertarian "god" that will make people behave in absence of a belief in a higher power. More like it is going to be another example of someone applying their own subjective thinking to the mass of mankind and naively thinking they are being objective.

No Libertarians, the world does not look like that to the rest of mankind. You can't see that this is so because you suffer from confirmation bias.



Dostoevsky had this stuff figured out 150 years ago.

If there is no God, everything is permitted.
Fyodor Dostoevsky
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

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