Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

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Diogenes
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by Diogenes »

TDPerk wrote:
Diogenes wrote:

Barely won? He won 304 to 227. Now that it has recently been revealed that the vote in New Hampshire was fraudulent and that Hillary's victory there is the result of 5,000 fraudulent votes cast being cast in that state, we can change the score to 308 to 223, which makes his vote even more substantial.


It wasn't even close, and yes, Hillary was incredibly bad. Worse than Obama, because she had been getting away with her corruption for a lot longer than he had.
Yes, barely won, because he barely flipped the Dem states he flipped.

Virtually every election is a "barely flip." I've studied this for years. Elections revolve around the 50% mark, and seldom achieve double digit leads for the victor. Usually the margin of victory in most elections is just a few percentage points.


If you want to accurately compare things, you should see how far Trump moved the electorate from their previous election tallies.

Take Ohio for example. (considered a bellwether of presidential elections)

In 2012, Barack Obama won it by 50.1% of the vote. He was only 1.9% ahead of Romney. Now that's what you call "barely won."

In 2016, Donald Trump won it by 52.1% to Hillary's 43.5% making him 8.6% ahead of her. In election terms that normally hover around small wins like the 1.9% in the case of Barack Obama above, 8.6 % is a virtual blow out.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Tom Ligon
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by Tom Ligon »

Trump is not a fool? All evidence to the contrary? Even Steve Bannon thinks firing Comey was the biggest mistake in modern political history.

I have no love or respect for Hillary or Obama, so don't even think I'm trying to defend them or would want them in office. But Trump has been shooting himself in the foot for months. We've all seen the foolishness. I could make a list, but why bother.

Diogenes, you have demanded proof from me that Trump has been colluding with the Russians. You deny that there is any evidence to support the idea, except, of course, for that put forward by Fake News.

Well, how can I argue with such logic? There's no way I can prove it (not my job anyway), if all evidence in that direction is automatically off the table because you think it is fake.

And yet you keep thinking Pizzagate is ... how did you put it ...
hanelyp wrote:As for the Pizzagate conspiracy theory, I rate it consistent with the known character of the accused persons, but lacking in solid evidence.
Diogenes wrote:That's where I'm at. Lots of weird circumstantial evidence, but no smoking gun, coupled with "I wouldn't put it past them".
If you want to speculate about Ed Murray, be my guest ... there would seem to be about five smoking guns at this point. But please stick to the same standards you use to defend Trump. Pizzagate ... let's get this clear ... is a nutball conspiracy theory with absolutely no credibility. Believing it "does not make much sense." So if you wish to go on pushing this idea, I've as much right to demand you show your sources as you have to demand I prove Russian collusion. C'mon, where are you getting your evidence, the NutJobs Conspiracy Forum? Fake News!!!! I'd be on firmer ground if I insisted the Pee Pee Tapes are real.

If you want to condemn Hillary and Obama, just stick to the facts and don't make stuff up. There's plenty there.

ladajo
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by ladajo »

Tom,
To be fair, the general public no longer (if it even really did in the first place) gives a shit that Trump fired Comey. Well, to be clear, technically it was Comey's boss who fired him, not Trump himself. Granted, he probably told him to.
Even Steve Bannon thinks firing Comey was the biggest mistake in modern political history.
By next election, Comey will be reduced to either no mention, or known as "you know, one of those guys Trump had fired..."

The political class and media who worship them are very much wrapped up in all the pomp and drama that makes their little artificial world go around. The average Joe doesn't give a shit for it, and that is more than likely a core tenant to how Trump won. Average Joe was sick of the bullshit with the Clintons and their ilk. The longer that self-centered idiot Clinton stays in the public eye, the deeper the Dem party digs it's hole with the electorate. Yay Book Tour! Bring It Hillary! Yay! Keep on Rollin! Talk about political suicide for dreams of posterity and $$$. The entire point of the book is to milk more $$$ out of the public. Nothing more, nothing less. I am not sure who is worse, then one that seeks to milk more money, or the husband and wife never ending world party tour of the rich and famous... speaks volumes to all their characters. Blood sucking scum. Folks like them are the reason Americans founded this nation in an attempt to get away from all the corruption and blood sucking.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by ladajo »

<rant ends>

:)
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Diogenes
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by Diogenes »

Tom Ligon wrote:Trump is not a fool? All evidence to the contrary?
For some reason that darn fool keeps winning. :)

Tom Ligon wrote: Even Steve Bannon thinks firing Comey was the biggest mistake in modern political history.
Because the New York Liberal Democrat media would make a firestorm out of it? I've long argued against people citing "media response" as a reason not to do the right thing. From the evidence at the time, and from subsequent evidence that has emerged, Comey needed to be fired.




Tom Ligon wrote: I have no love or respect for Hillary or Obama, so don't even think I'm trying to defend them or would want them in office. But Trump has been shooting himself in the foot for months. We've all seen the foolishness. I could make a list, but why bother.

I'm not a big Trump fan, and I was never a big Trump supporter prior to the election, but I knew what I was getting when I signed onto the deal. (and more importantly I knew what I was avoiding.) Trump is a brash and entertaining populist with a style of saying all sorts of things about which few of his supporters take him seriously. You can find quotes from him that are all over the place, and he picks fights unnecessarily, but is this stuff shooting him in the foot? Because the media keep citing the polls they keep rigging with their constant harassment of him in their coverage?

I doubt it. If he grants amnesty without having some sort of political counterweight such as constructing the wall, *THAT* would be him shooting himself in the foot.



Tom Ligon wrote: Diogenes, you have demanded proof from me that Trump has been colluding with the Russians. You deny that there is any evidence to support the idea, except, of course, for that put forward by Fake News.

I believe I have pointed out that the evidence so far provided by "fake news", (DNC hacking by the Russians) has blown up in their faces, and I have yet to see any new evidence, even on "fake news" to replace it.

Tom Ligon wrote: Well, how can I argue with such logic?

You could provide some of that evidence regarding Russians hacking the election about which I asked you. I keep up with this stuff, and I don't know of any other supporting evidence in the DNC/New York Media pipeline. If you do, then you've managed to find material that I haven't seen, and not for lack of trying.

Tom Ligon wrote: There's no way I can prove it (not my job anyway), if all evidence in that direction is automatically off the table because you think it is fake.
The evidence of which I am aware has turned out to be fake. (Russians hacking the DNC and releasing Damaging emails) This does not preclude other evidence from being valid, and if you know of any, I would like to see it. What I see is a media system (did I mention it mostly employed Liberal New Yorkers, and that New York voted for Obama by 89% ?) that has seized upon this and repeated it so often that many people have come to believe it, including you, I think.



Tom Ligon wrote: And yet you keep thinking Pizzagate is ... how did you put it ...
hanelyp wrote:As for the Pizzagate conspiracy theory, I rate it consistent with the known character of the accused persons, but lacking in solid evidence.
Diogenes wrote:That's where I'm at. Lots of weird circumstantial evidence, but no smoking gun, coupled with "I wouldn't put it past them".

If you want to speculate about Ed Murray, be my guest ... there would seem to be about five smoking guns at this point. But please stick to the same standards you use to defend Trump. Pizzagate ... let's get this clear ... is a nutball conspiracy theory with absolutely no credibility.

Years ago I read a great rebuttal of Henry Fonda's character in "12 angry men." Fonda pointed out that each piece of evidence is inconclusive because there was an alternative explanation for it that did not prove the defendant to have committed the crime. The Rebuttal I read asserted that individually each piece of evidence could have an alternative explanation, but collectively they form a chain of probability that implicates the defendant.


Such is Pizzagate. Nothing that conclusively proves anything taken on it's own, but such a long series of oddities that don't have any clear benign explanations. It puts it in the category of "We need to keep an eye on this in case there are further developments in this direction", but not in the category of "This is an obvious case of wrongdoing."


Now I see the wheels turning in your mind thinking "But what about the long series of oddities related to Trump and Russia?" Well the bulk of those are derivative from the DNC hack, and therefore that entire class of derived evidence is basically rebutted.


Tom Ligon wrote: Believing it "does not make much sense." So if you wish to go on pushing this idea, I've as much right to demand you show your sources as you have to demand I prove Russian collusion.


I thought you would never ask. :)

But let's take a "tale of two cities". I said the Russian hack thing was bunk. I proved it by citing political adversaries "statements against interest" which can and have been confirmed by others to be correct regarding the impossibility of Russians hacking the DNC and releasing those damaging emails.

I made my assertion. I cited my evidence.

You asserted that "Pizzagate" was bunk. I asked for evidence to support this. As of yet you haven't provided any beyond "everyone knows it's a nutball conspiracy theory." or some such.


I find what I have read and seen about "Pizzagate" deeply disturbing, and evidence that it is all some sort of misunderstanding would greatly relieve me, but of the several people who told me that it has been "debunked" I have yet to have any of them show me where or how it was debunked.



Tom Ligon wrote: C'mon, where are you getting your evidence, the NutJobs Conspiracy Forum? Fake News!!!! I'd be on firmer ground if I insisted the Pee Pee Tapes are real.

If you want to condemn Hillary and Obama, just stick to the facts and don't make stuff up. There's plenty there.

Undoubtedly, which is why it isn't so irrational to believe there is even more there than has already surfaced.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Diogenes
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by Diogenes »

ladajo wrote:Tom,

The political class and media who worship them are very much wrapped up in all the pomp and drama that makes their little artificial world go around. The average Joe doesn't give a shit for it, and that is more than likely a core tenant to how Trump won. Average Joe was sick of the bullshit with the Clintons and their ilk.

I wish there was a "Like" button. Yes, the "elite" are very out of touch with the hoi polloi.


This video not only illustrated the point in a blunt fashion, it had me laughing till my ribs hurt.

https://youtu.be/zT0Rjc6jKCg
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Tom Ligon
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by Tom Ligon »

Diogenes wrote: Years ago I read a great rebuttal of Henry Fonda's character in "12 angry men." Fonda pointed out that each piece of evidence is inconclusive because there was an alternative explanation for it that did not prove the defendant to have committed the crime. The Rebuttal I read asserted that individually each piece of evidence could have an alternative explanation, but collectively they form a chain of probability that implicates the defendant.


Such is
the case that Trump is guilty of obstruction of justice.
Diogenes wrote:Nothing that conclusively proves anything taken on it's own, but such a long series of oddities that don't have any clear benign explanations. It puts it in the category of "We need to keep an eye on this in case there are further developments in this direction", but not in the category of "This is an obvious case of wrongdoing."
You have failed to cite your sources for Pizzagate. All you have offered is "I find what I have read and seen about 'Pizzagate' deeply disturbing, and evidence that it is all some sort of misunderstanding would greatly relieve me, but of the several people who told me that it has been "debunked" I have yet to have any of them show me where or how it was debunked."

Where have you read or seen any credible evidence that this was other than a web hoax?

If you get to stick with this kind of malarkey without any more proof than " I have read and seen about 'Pizzagate' ", then you've got no business asking me to do Mueller's job for him.

williatw
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by williatw »

Tom Ligon wrote:Such is the case that Trump is guilty of obstruction of justice.
Yes..knew you would focus on that one Tom. Obstruction of justice about the most nebulous one; the one prosecutors use when they can't find any other crime is to say well you "obstructed" the investigation by say firing James Comey. Doesn't matter if the firing is legal or not in and of itself (it was) you (Trump) just did it for the wrong reason so it is a crime. Obstruction of justice could be failure to disclose information even if not asked; document or documents not surrendered fast enough, statements that Trump made to someone (like Comey) that make him feel "uncomfortable" even if not illegal. Meanwhile statements by Loretta Lynch to Comey about how the investigation onto Hillary Clinton's real scandal her mishandling of classified documents on an unsecure server is to be worded only a certain way is fine. The then AG (lynch) having to recuse herself from an investigation because she was compromised by Bill Clinton's tarmac meeting (about grandkids) falls by the wayside. Comey then of the FBI having to decide whether or not to "recommend" that charges be filed against Hillary caused by lynch's said recusal, inventing an incorrect definition of the statute in question (she didn't mean to so it doesn't count). The DNC leaks that reveal how much the deck was stacked under the table by the DNC heads (Debbie Washerman Schultz etc.) against Bernie Saunders; nothing to investigate there sure that's perfectly legal to compromise the election process that way.

Tom Ligon
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by Tom Ligon »

Aww gee, you're sore because Diogenes set that one up so perfectly and I spotted it.

Except that Trumps actions, and how one can logically string them together so that any single one of them might seem excuseable, but together they paint a picture of blatant obstruction, is all public record. Heck, we can roll the video and he says it himself. Regardless of whether or not Russia tried to hack the elections or Trump's team colluded with them, Trump himself has given us exactly the items to create that Fonda string of evidence from "Twelve Angry Men."

Whereas, we still don't know where the heck you and Diogenes and a couple of others are finding any credible evidence of Pizzagate at all. Just vague statements that it is from things "you read" and fitting the profiles you made up for the supposed perpetrators. And somehow, if you find enough made up stories and string them together you can think maybe you see a vile ring of pedophiles who drink the precious bodily fluids of their victims. Because where you are seeing a string of vaguely incriminating events, I'm left to suppose that you're seeing a string of made-up bits of hogwash, because neither of you cite any credible source.

Leaving I think the majority of us, a very big majority, to think you have a dose of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKR32ImWYzw

williatw
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by williatw »

Tom Ligon wrote:Whereas, we still don't know where the heck you and Diogenes and a couple of others are finding any credible evidence of Pizzagate
Err...if you are referring to me as "you", I haven't said jack doodle about pizzagate. I was merely saying that "obstruction of justice" is the go to charge when prosecutors don't have anything else to hang their hats on. Sounds better than after spending lots of time (& taxpayer money) we haven't anything else to indict/prosecute on so go with "obstruction"; you didn't aid us sufficiently with our attempted witch hunt so there take that instead.

Tom Ligon
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by Tom Ligon »

Oh, gee, that's right. You think the Ukrainians are all Nazis and think Putin is a Great Guy. Hanelyp thinks Pizzagate is real. Sorry, I get my easily deluded conspiracy theorists mixed up.

Do you all get this stuff from the same websites, or to you follow different ones? You never will say.

williatw
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by williatw »

Tom Ligon wrote: You think the Ukrainians are all Nazis and think Putin is a Great Guy.
Uhh...I think you have me again mixed up with someone else...I voted for Trump that much is true. I am the "bank of mars" guy if that helps any & I agree with MSimon about the WOD being bullsh&t if that rings a bell. And if I didn't know better I might think a certain plant based controlled substance was legal where you are; or maybe just past your bedtime?

Tom Ligon
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by Tom Ligon »

williatw wrote: And if I didn't know better I might think a certain plant based controlled substance was legal where you are; or maybe just past your bedtime?
Wife has me on a diet and my blood sugar is low. And I get grumpy when I'm hungry.

hanelyp
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by hanelyp »

Tom Ligon, your past record shows you too smart for that sloppy of reading comprehension to be accidental. PLOINK!
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

choff
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by choff »

Hasn't the Clinton camp moved on from accusing Trump of colluding with the Russians to Sanders colluding with the Russians.
CHoff

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