Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

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williatw
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by williatw »

Okay Ladajo your our resident technical expert in such matters but here goes:

ladajo wrote:1. The platform needs to be in a useful orbit, or be maneuverable.
The commission claims the NK sats are in said orbit, passing over US and allies whatever that's worth.
ladajo wrote:The platform requires space tracking and surveillance support or organic reliable position reporting in order to conduct targeting.
3. The platform requires a ground control segment and link to manage its operations (there is a time aspect to this as well as geographic, beyond the actual functional process itself).
Would some kind of crude timer/timing signal work? Maybe even a link to a NK ship in the pacific or Atlantic if need be?
In any case why would it require precision targeting? Your target is the "center" of the continental USA; relatively easy target I would think; if your off a little bit so what?
ladajo wrote:4. The platform needs to be able to perform a controlled deorbit, or payload release in order for the payload to reach an altitude useful for desired EMP effects.
Why not just detonate the bomb (destroying the sat to, who cares..no need to "release") in orbit when is over the US? Why would it need to deorbit? from the link:
One detonated at an altitude of 294 miles would affect most of the continental US.

How high (don't know) are you supposing the NK satellite(s) are that they would need to "deorbit" before detonating?
ladajo wrote: 5. Deployment of the payload needs to include a means to ensure proper fusing for desired effects at the right time.
6. There needs to be a weapon, with a useful shelf life, on the platform.
7. The platform needs to survive until employment either organically, or with protection against external interference.
8. The weapon needs to survive until employment either organically, or with protection against external interference.
Assuming they have said weapon on/inside the satellite...how do we know the sat itself isn't simply a bomb? Yes assuming they have the means to remote detonate it...but sure even a ground based nuke has either a timer or some kind of remote detonator (with lesser range of course)? As for "interference" that assumes we are actively trying to "jam" said NK sat; don't know if that is even true.

ladajo wrote: 9. The target set need to be susceptible to desired effects.
This is the easiest one. The "target" would be us and our allies; if you believe the commission's findings doesn't seem we have done much of anything to protect our civilian infrastructure; maybe our military assets are better protected?

paperburn1
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by paperburn1 »

most people have no idea how many weapons have been shot off. two ? ten? one hundred? 500? 1000? 2000? more?

https://youtu.be/cjAqR1zICA0
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
for the quick version start at twelve min. mark
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ladajo
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by ladajo »

In simple terms, there is no fully positive provable point regarding the DPRK for any of the requirements I listed. You are heading into the realm of prove a negative.
Here is a simple question, what current utility is publically known for the existing DPRK space launches?
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by paperburn1 »

Image
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

hanelyp
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by hanelyp »

Detonating an orbital nuke as it passes over a target zone makes a lot of targeting details easy. Just need a well characterized orbit and a projection of when to detonate. But even at minimal orbital altitude you need a minimal blast size to produce an effective ground level EMP. And I'd not be surprised if hard numbers on EMP intensity from nuke yield and altitude are classified.

And I can see a much easier way to cripple the US electrical grid.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

mvanwink5
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by mvanwink5 »

And I can see a much easier way to cripple the US electrical grid.
Yes, load it up with wind and solar power sources.
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

ladajo
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by ladajo »

EMP is very altitude and atmospherics dependent.
Popping a weapon in orbit is going to have essentially no effect if any on the ground.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

choff
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by choff »

mvanwink5 wrote:
And I can see a much easier way to cripple the US electrical grid.
Yes, load it up with wind and solar power sources.
Or 5000 saboteurs with high powered rifles that position themselves around the approx. same number of transformers at the same time some night. Destroying 3 would be bad enough.
CHoff

williatw
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by williatw »

ladajo wrote:EMP is very altitude and atmospherics dependent.
Popping a weapon in orbit is going to have essentially no effect if any on the ground.
There seems to be a difference of opinion on that point:


Image
A nuclear bomb detonated 19 miles above the earth would affect Kansas and the surrounding states. One detonated at an altitude of 294 miles would affect most of the continental US. The map above shows EMP blast zones (red) of detonations at different altitudes

ladajo
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by ladajo »

As I said, they don't really know what they are talking about.

Think atmospheric layers... and their effect on RF transmissions...
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by paperburn1 »

t\That graph is made up of unicorns and rainbows. :D

when you make angry pixies with the gamma the result is more u shaped.
Second the legend shows the usa only 600 miles across? oops strike that they are saying altitude :D maybe?

Third given the size of device the angry LFT has, once again not that big of a Pulse can be generated. (nothing to be laughed at but...)
Fourth it does not take into account terrain effects, atmospheric effects and a host of other variables.
I am sure some things have changed in 30 plus years when I went to school but most of the education should be the same.

And nobody has mention physical countermeasures that you can take to protect your stuff.

read this
https://cryptome.org/emp.htm
Purpose. This pamphlet provides unclassified engineering and design
information about protecting fixed ground facilities against the effects of an
electromagnetic pulse (EMP) produced by a nuclear explosion. It also provides
unclassified engineering and design information about satisfying TEMPEST
requirements.
A shot to the usa dead center would look more like this and would require a weapon far bigger than our LFT possesses. Because of the downward tilt of the Earth's magnetic field at high latitudes, the area of peak field strength is a U-shaped region to the equatorial side of the nuclear detonation
Image
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Tom Ligon
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by Tom Ligon »

Interesting paper. It dates from 1990, a time when I was working in a lab in Falls Church, VA, in a building shared with an electronics lab which, for a time, produced the dangedest banging noises. That was when they installed the triple-shielded TEMPEST facility.

At that time, desktop computers were pretty new. I was running a NorthStar Horizon in a wooden case.
Image https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NorthStar ... orizon.jpg

Obviously the NorthStar would have been an RF emitter and succeptible to EMP. But since then, consumer computers have been required to pass stringent RF emissions limits, and handheld stuff has to be airliner-friendly. You may notice, your desk-top computer cases now sport springy bronze fingers to couple the case parts.

My experience with getting equipment tested for EMP, by labs that do that plus EMI/EMC compliance testing, says that almost everything these days is much better shielded. When we expressed nervousness about our UAV control systems passing the 30 kV/meter EMP test, the tech just shrugged and said it was not that big a deal, and a lot of consumer products could pass it.

This may not be as big a deal as some of you are making of it.

The grid is designed to withstand lightning stikes, locally more severe than EMP. My computer is double-protected by panel lightning arrestors plus Tripp-Lite products.

I'm not eager to test this, but I doubt we're as vulnerable as some bloggers think. Military equipment is well-tested and pretty resistant. The boomers, deep in the ocean, would be immune. NK would not survive it.

ladajo
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by ladajo »

Paperburn, thanks for posting the graphic for E1 impacts. All should note the narrow area of high effect, which IS NOT centered below the weapon. This is a function of how the effect is generated, and how the yield / altitude / casing type / burst latitude / weapon type all interrelate. Some help, some hurt.

Part of the issue is that the Talking Heads don't take the time to actually understand the point at hand.
They are on an agenda, and relevance based on facts is not important.

For example, how often do you hear any of them discussing the difference between E1, E2, and E3 effects. And how that is driven by weapon yield, altitude, and coupling mechanisms. The lovely DOOM graphic shared above does not even specify which effect(s) it represents. Not that it held any accuracy either.

I also agree with Tom's point about FCC standards inherently making consumer and commercial products hardened. One wonders if this was an accident...

For williatw: Weapons' EMP is based primarily on atmospheric interactions with the weapon's detonation produced gammas and fireball, thus if you go outside of the atmosphere, you lose those interactions. This is especially important when getting into E2 & E3 effects. Also, the inherent shielding effect due to earth's magnetic field and its interaction also have an impact, especially on E1. The other part of the equation, which is probably MORE important, are the coupling mechanisms for susceptible systems for all three effects. It is an extremely complex topic, that can not be reduced to a couple of slick PPT slides and 90 seconds of commentary.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Tom Ligon
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by Tom Ligon »

I don't know how many hackers still do this, but the common Hollywood depiction of them is that they run their computers with the cases open.

This is something no sufficiently paranoid hacker or conspiracy theorist should ever do. The Men In Black could just sit in their vans outside and eavesdrop on you, or shut your system down with EMI. I sure hope the hackers still do this.

Which explains why I don't use wifi if I can avoid it, airgap my backups, and have the camera and mic on my laptop covered. My goal is to bore the MIB to death. They'll just have to content themselves with my posts here.

If you want to protect your data, there's a lot to be said for a portable backup hard drive, unplugged except when backups are performed, and kept in a metal firebox, preferably off-site. EMP is just part of the reason for this.

williatw
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Re: Sell The Whitehouse to Trump

Post by williatw »

ladajo wrote:For williatw: Weapons' EMP is based primarily on atmospheric interactions with the weapon's detonation produced gammas and fireball, thus if you go outside of the atmosphere, you lose those interactions.
Well Ladajo...I am not an engineer or physicists BS in Chemistry here. But I do understand inverse square laws. 294 mile up; presumably an approximately isotropic nuclear explosion. 294 miles minus 100 miles (very roughly top of the atmosphere) equals 194 miles. Let's call it 200 miles. No blast wave or fireball if detonated in the vacuum of space just an expanding sphere of the radiation front (gamma rays whatever) of the detonation. Let's consider the difference of what the atmosphere would "feel" after the wave has traveled 200 miles vs an air burst in the atmosphere looking at say 100 meters away. Area of the sphere of the radiation "blast" is 4*pi* (R)2. (100meter)squared divided by (1609*200) squared yields about 10e-8 less intensity by the time the wave reaches the upper atmosphere; sounds like your right, not much EMP. Also 100 mile up the atmosphere is pretty rarefied; vs a much lower atmosphere denser air burst where nearly all the blast energy goes into the air; in the case of our 294 mile detonation a large percentage just radiates out into space. And only the part directly below the explosion is 200 miles away; parts further away the energy would be even more diluted. So it looks like that unless your talking about an insanely powerful nuke 294 miles up you are likely right in your points about EMP.

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