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GIThruster
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Flike

Postby GIThruster » Sat May 30, 2015 3:13 pm

"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Diogenes
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Re: Flike

Postby Diogenes » Sat May 30, 2015 8:24 pm





Not that far off from the Moller flying car. Also, someone else has already made a working model of this idea, albeit with four rotors instead of just three.


https://youtu.be/bpko3CPHonQ
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

GIThruster
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Re: Flike

Postby GIThruster » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:40 pm

That is a very cool concept, but there are three issues with both these as I see it. First is these are both electric, which means they won't have the energy density to fly for more than just a few minutes. This isn't true with the drone. The larger you build, the bigger your energy storage troubles. Second is insurance. I was tracking SoloTrek back before the crash that killed the pilot and the program. That is a vastly safer design since it lifts from the top and won't flip over the way these two other designs will--it's more stable. Yet the SoloTrek XFV killed its pilot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdX8bkyvpyo

Third things is, we really don't get what we want with fans, since they turn every pebble on the ground into a dangerous projectile. While I love the general ideas here, I don't think we'll see this sort of vehicle come into its heyday until we have high thrust efficiency MET's.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Diogenes
Posts: 6958
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: Flike

Postby Diogenes » Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:13 pm

GIThruster wrote:That is a very cool concept, but there are three issues with both these as I see it. First is these are both electric, which means they won't have the energy density to fly for more than just a few minutes. This isn't true with the drone. The larger you build, the bigger your energy storage troubles. Second is insurance. I was tracking SoloTrek back before the crash that killed the pilot and the program. That is a vastly safer design since it lifts from the top and won't flip over the way these two other designs will--it's more stable. Yet the SoloTrek XFV killed its pilot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdX8bkyvpyo

Third things is, we really don't get what we want with fans, since they turn every pebble on the ground into a dangerous projectile. While I love the general ideas here, I don't think we'll see this sort of vehicle come into its heyday until we have high thrust efficiency MET's.




It occurs to me that one of the things that makes the quad copter design so functional is the fact that you have near instantaneous control of the thrust produced by each fan, and that is primarily due to the fact it is using electronic control for the motors.


In fuel powered designs, there is a built in lag response, and this precludes the ability to throttle them up or down near instantaneously as is possible with electric motors. I believe it is the quick response to throttle commands that gives the quad copter design it's necessary responsiveness. While it may be possible to create an engine/fan design that can move fast enough to respond to efforts to tilt it over, It would take a lot of work, and even then I doubt it can match the quick responses of an electronic drive system.


Perhaps a hybrid which uses engines for most of the lift, but incorporates electric motors to provide the quick response necessary to maintain orientation?


Regarding the SoloTrek, it looks like a contraption, and i'm not surprised that it crashed. It looks to be on the very edge of being able to lift at all, and that's with the motors rapped out pretty high.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

GIThruster
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Re: Flike

Postby GIThruster » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:58 pm

IIRC, the stats on the SoloTrek were pretty good--over 300MPH is I recall. The real difference was that it's internal combustion, so it could fly for half hour or so and had a substantial range--something you won't get with electric motors until we have an amazing breakthrough with batteries. If Ralphial Morgodo ever gets Angel Labs' MYT engine running properly, that would best enable all these kinds of flying contraptions, but last I heard he still had not solved the cooling trouble and was unlikely to do so without funding and access to some exotic technologies.

I think you're right that electric generates more immediate response than IC, but if the thing will only fly for 3 minutes, people aren't going to buy it. And as disappointing as the SoloTrek was in ergonomics as compared to the bikes here, it should have been vastly safer. At least it can't flip. Without some serious computing the bikes are going to be tempted to flop over and stall, spin, crash, burn, die. Just like the old Avro projects and a host of various attempts over the year.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Diogenes
Posts: 6958
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: Flike

Postby Diogenes » Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:37 pm

GIThruster wrote:IIRC, the stats on the SoloTrek were pretty good--over 300MPH is I recall. The real difference was that it's internal combustion, so it could fly for half hour or so and had a substantial range--something you won't get with electric motors until we have an amazing breakthrough with batteries. If Ralphial Morgodo ever gets Angel Labs' MYT engine running properly, that would best enable all these kinds of flying contraptions, but last I heard he still had not solved the cooling trouble and was unlikely to do so without funding and access to some exotic technologies.

I think you're right that electric generates more immediate response than IC, but if the thing will only fly for 3 minutes, people aren't going to buy it.





I don't think you were understanding my meaning by use of the word "Hybrid." In some cars, the gasoline engine gets an "assist" from the electric motor when more power is needed. The gas engine provides the normal torque, and the electric motor provides more as is necessary in response to conditions.


The batteries get charged by the gas engine while it is running. Three minutes of battery capacity to carry the entire load works out to be "for the duration of the flight" when those batteries are only used for control/stability assists.









GIThruster wrote:And as disappointing as the SoloTrek was in ergonomics as compared to the bikes here, it should have been vastly safer. At least it can't flip. Without some serious computing the bikes are going to be tempted to flop over and stall, spin, crash, burn, die. Just like the old Avro projects and a host of various attempts over the year.



Without some sort of fly by wire control system, even that bottom heavy design will do squirrly things. Just because it's inherently stable in one configuration, doesn't mean it will stay that way.


How do you make that thing go forward anyway? Angling the fans back or something? What happens when you turn? Won't one fan have to run harder to compensate for loss of lift on one side?


I think four supporting pillars of air are inherently more stable than just two. Especially when they can be controlled at lightning speed.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

GIThruster
Posts: 4686
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Re: Flike

Postby GIThruster » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:57 pm

Diogenes wrote: How do you make that thing go forward anyway? Angling the fans back or something? What happens when you turn? Won't one fan have to run harder to compensate for loss of lift on one side?

I don't honestly recall but there have been attempts at rocket packs and jet packs for many years and most of them rely upon shifting body weight for control. This gives rise to just exactly the issues you raise. What is inherently stable but needs control through body position is more prone to go out of control. Conversely, even inherently unstable platforms like these bikes can be forced into flight by computer control. The F-117 was not inherently stable, but it was able to fly because the control system forced it to balance, like a pencil on point. One can do this with a bike, but if the weight atop from the rider shifts too much, you could have catastrophic consequences.

BTW talking about jet packs and such, I recall there was some whacko quoted by some other whacko on Art Bell's Coast to Coast (which I never listened to) once who sounded psychotic, but just saying--what he reported was aliens that came across some fields toward his family and including his entire daughter's family. Apparently they were all there and share this same group delusion. They claimed these aliens were flying with some sort of jet pack with no downwash or propellant exhausted. It was just a harness like a climbing harness.

Since that time it has seemed to me almost the ultimate expression of MET technology, to build a flying belt or harness. All these things like the Flikes and jet packs would have their ultimate expression in such a harness.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Diogenes
Posts: 6958
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Re: Flike

Postby Diogenes » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:54 pm

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —


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