how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in outrag

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GIThruster
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how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in outrag

Postby GIThruster » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:22 pm

"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Skipjack
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Re: how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in ou

Postby Skipjack » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:07 pm

One trillion USD cost plus contract. But hey its never wasteful government spending if the money goes to a major defense contractor...

choff
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Re: how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in ou

Postby choff » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:08 pm

Should have gone with the Growlers.
CHoff

D Tibbets
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Re: how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in ou

Postby D Tibbets » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:04 am

Yes, the F-35 is such a terrible fighter, that is why nations are lining up to buy it over the Eurofighter and Rafael.

the F 16 was actually a cheap light fighter with minimal air combat capabilities other than close in dog fighting. Only the later versions with extensive radar, engine and weight growth became capable air to air platforms. Even then they suffer from short range, limited air to air weapon loads, and uncertain network capabilities.

The future of aircraft is - one stealth, two profound imrovements in sensors, three networking, four weapon improvements, and finally fifth manouverability.

In the realm of manouverability, the F35 will be close to the the later generation F16. It has already demonstrated almost +10 g manouvering (A version), roll rates well over 200 degrees per second, angle of attack capability similar to F18 (which opens up a whole range of manouvers unaviable to F16 or f15 fighters),
While the aircraft weighs a few thousand pounds more than late generation F16s, it has ~ 15,000 pounds more thrust, so at similar weapons and fuel loads it should accelerate much better than the F16.

Most of the "experts "that comment on comparisons, use f35 data that is out of date. The computer controlled flight controls have had a slow and painful evolution. Any comparison, though must apply to the latest flight software, and evolved flight envelope which is finally approaching deployment quality. Using 2012 or even earlier f35 data serves no purpose other than the punduts ego.

Will the F35 out dogfight a Eurofighter, or Rafael, or especially a Grippen in a close and slow dogfight? Probably not. Will it do good enough to survive many of these encounters provided the pilot is good and knows his tactics? Possibly. Will the f35 kill 9/10 aircraft before the merge happens, or alternately avoid the merge entirely? Probably. Given the same surface to air environment, which is more nervous, a stealth aircraft pilot or non stealth pilot. Some say stealth is not absolute protection. Of course not, it has never been. The key is to limit the range and time that you are vulnerable.
The Russians and Chinese are not persueing stealth technology because it is fashionable. They are doing so because of the real and perhaps profound advantages it gives. This is especially important as good and reliable radar homing missiles have finally matured. Then, don't discount the tremendous advantage that modern EASA radars give. Anything that limits their range and discrimination threshold is essential if you plan to survive in the modern air battlefield. I might add that it is not only radar stealth that applies, IR stealth is critical as the IR missles have become more maneuverable, and have intimidating lock on fields of view. They are getting close to where plane maneuver is irrelevant*. If you have a boggy at your 6, don't bother trying to maneuver to escape or bring your weapons to bear, just push a button, and your dogfight missile will be cued to the boggy, launch, turn quickly, lock on and boom. You either destroy him, or he maneuvers violently with flares, etc. If he survives and recovers, you are gone, or are sitting up for a second shot. First look, first see, first shot is the key to survival, not maneuvering (with matured missiles). Maneuvering only helps you if you are a 4th generation fighter trying desperately to survive against a 5th generation. Fifth generation usually implies stealth and the most modern radar equipment. But it also includes 360 degree IR and probably visual sensors, and extensive situational awareness and battle space awareness, thanks to networking. All presented to the pilot hopefully without blowing his mind.


* Good and reliable missiles with wide fields of view have been advertised for decades. That is why the US disdained guns as far back as the 1960s. Their confidence in the missiles were proven badly flawed then, but now the missiles may actually perform as advertised. Note that violent maneuvering can often defeat a missile, provided you have warning and time it right. For a missile to track a maneuvering aircraft it generally needs to be able to sustain about 5 times the G's of the aircraft. So, if the aircraft turns sharply at 9 G, the missile may need to turn at up to 45 G to avoid overshooting. Maneuvering still has its uses, but now it is mostly to desperately try to avoid death, rather than setting up your own shot. Another use might derive from needing visual confirmation befor eyou risk friendly fire. The enhanscd sensors though can mitigate this considerably(get visual confirmation from 30 KM instead of 3KM).

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

D Tibbets
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Re: how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in ou

Postby D Tibbets » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:44 am

I didn't mention radar jamming. This is a large part of the method 4.5 generation fighters must use to survive. How much jamming capacity the F35 will have is unknown, but there are hints that it will be considerable. The dedicated F18G jammer helps to cover the Air forces legacy aircraft in this area. Onboard and podded jammers may be evolving such that adequate coverage is available to the individual fighter bomber though- provided you stay one step ahead, and provided you have the necessary load out capability for weapons, fuel and jammers- probably no problem for an F15E, and probably a challenge for an F16). Stealth would greatly ease this burden, and probably increase its effectiveness at the same time. I should mention that generation 4.5 fighters like the F18E, Euro fighter, and Rafael have some stealth characteristics, but not the fanatical application that is required for true "stealth" qualities. This level though does probably improve jamming effectiveness. The Su35, while no doubt a good fighter is a sitting duck from a radar and IR perspective. Even the new Russian T 50, while having frontal stealth appears to have grossly exposed engine exhausts. I suppose if you can keep your nose pointed at the enemy that is ok, but with multiple planes and any dog fighting or passing that will quickly change.

Dan Tibbets
















Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

choff
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Re: how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in ou

Postby choff » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:08 am

The other reason I like the Growlers, surviving bird strikes, two engines, how good are these advanced radars at picking up a flock of Canadian geese, and how well does the F35 engine hold up to one. I've also heard of test pilots complaining they can't see behind from the cockpit of an F35, assuming they ever do get into a dog fight.

Another point with these IR missiles, how far along is decoy flare technology, could incorporate radar beacon's as well. If both planes use up the missiles on decoys, they end up going to guns,(assuming they have any).
CHoff

hanelyp
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Re: how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in ou

Postby hanelyp » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:01 am

Old fashioned chaff can easily have a larger radar cross section than an aircraft with stealth design.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

ladajo
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Re: how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in ou

Postby ladajo » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:31 pm

The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

GIThruster
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Re: how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in ou

Postby GIThruster » Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:46 pm

I can't help but observe once more the pathetic defense of the F-35 always comes back to technology that would have been included in ANY and ALL next generation fighters. When you look at the things that are uniquely F-35, most especially the cheap single engine design that is not cheap and cannot compete with twin engine designs, and the absolutely idiotic notion of building 3 aircraft on the same frame, it is obvious that the F-35 is a kludge and an idiot's game. The ONLY reason the various nations are staying in the game is that they are already so deeply invested. The ONLY genius behind the F-35 program was that it was sold so broadly that it can survive any cost and time overruns, any nation bailing on them, any nation cutting back their number of fighters. It is the SALES program that is genius, not the plane!!!
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

ladajo
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Re: how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in ou

Postby ladajo » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:34 pm

The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

GIThruster
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Re: how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in ou

Postby GIThruster » Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:06 pm

It's true I hate the single engine notion unless it can be like the F-16, cheap. If single engine means we can have 4X as many in the air, then I like single engine and that is how the program was sold back in the 80's. Trouble is, it is now the most expensive aircraft program ever. It's anything but cheap. It's a trillion dollar plane!

I also object to the Marines having to have their own platform built on the same frame. That is just a stupid idea. Building a standard A package for the Air Force, a B package for the Navy and a C package for the Marines is really just building 3 different planes, and if there were some savings to building them on the same frame, then okay (not possible), that's fine. BUT THERE IS NO SAVINGS!

From start to finish, JSF is a bilking not only of the American public, but of the public in Japan, and Australia, and all those in NATO who bought in, and Lockmart is pocketing all the cash. A trillion dollar slimefest from our friends at Lockmart, whom I think deserve to be drawn and quartered. F-35 challenges me to think outside the box as to what is acceptable punishment in a civilized society. I don't believe in torture, but I would love to keel haul a bunch of those Lockmart bastards.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

ladajo
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Re: how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in ou

Postby ladajo » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:35 pm

The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ltgbrown
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Re: how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in ou

Postby ltgbrown » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:16 pm

GIThruster,
Why can you not accept the "pushing the envelope of security" opinion of someone in the know? We all would love stuff to cost less. But the stuff doesn't always cost what we want or ask for.

And for the record, I AM an aviator. Ladajo does have a clue about what he is talking about.

Glenn
23 years flying
3500 hours in the air
1st pilot level 5 Weapons and Tactics Instructor
2 years doing airframe requirements and mission analysis (E-2D, which meant I had to learn about F-35, and a lot of other platforms, ALOT)
Famous last words, "Hey, watch this!"

GIThruster
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Re: how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in ou

Postby GIThruster » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:21 pm

"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

paperburn1
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Re: how the F-35 sucks so bad it ought to make you cry in ou

Postby paperburn1 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:00 pm

I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.


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