Thermionic Converter Designer

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ohiovr
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Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by ohiovr »

http://ohiovr.com/documents/problems%20 ... rters.html
  • High Efficiency
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Video is included in the description
-Scott

Aero
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Re: Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by Aero »

Scott - Great reference information for a "How To" book. An example "How To" that would be of interest is converting my electric golf cart. (I use it as local run-about transportation.)

The golf cart uses four expensive 12 volt deep cycle batteries which must be recharged about every 6 miles and replaced occasionally. Charging electricity costs about $0.18/kW-hr at the meter. I currently use sun shade mounted solar cells to mitigate charging cost and to rescue me when I run out of power away from home, but solar cells are expensive, too. Used (or well used) electric golf carts can be purchased at reasonable prices, but often need replacement of the control electronics. Some questions:

Would a drop-in device fit in the battery compartment?
Would the device mass less than the batteries it replaced?
How much fuel (kerosene maybe) would be needed for reasonable range?
Would the fuel tank also fit in the battery compartment?
What would mass of the device plus fuel and tank be, compared to the batteries?
Would such a device reduce my transportation cost per mile?
Would such a system eliminate my concern about range limits?

When will you publish the "How To" instructions? :)

Thanks.
Aero

ohiovr
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Re: Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by ohiovr »

Aero wrote:Scott - Great reference information for a "How To" book. An example "How To" that would be of interest is converting my electric golf cart. (I use it as local run-about transportation.)

The golf cart uses four expensive 12 volt deep cycle batteries which must be recharged about every 6 miles and replaced occasionally. Charging electricity costs about $0.18/kW-hr at the meter. I currently use sun shade mounted solar cells to mitigate charging cost and to rescue me when I run out of power away from home, but solar cells are expensive, too. Used (or well used) electric golf carts can be purchased at reasonable prices, but often need replacement of the control electronics. Some questions:

Would a drop-in device fit in the battery compartment?
Would the device mass less than the batteries it replaced?
How much fuel (kerosene maybe) would be needed for reasonable range?
Would the fuel tank also fit in the battery compartment?
What would mass of the device plus fuel and tank be, compared to the batteries?
Would such a device reduce my transportation cost per mile?
Would such a system eliminate my concern about range limits?

When will you publish the "How To" instructions? :)

Thanks.
Hi Aero,

Well I should some time make a way of saving designs so I can whip them out when needed. Or if others want to experiment. Since you need 48 volts, you will need to have 70 cells. At the base line configuration (all I did was change the quantity of cells to 70), you can have 47.88 volts, and get 121 amps for power level of 5797 watts or if you want this in horse power it is a total of 7.77 Hp. I'm not sure if this is enough for a golf car. With this configuration you'll have an efficiency of about 29%. So if you are considering cost per kilowatt, if you use propane for fuel, at $33.00 per million btu, your cost per kilowatt hour would be 38 cents. If you can stand compressed natural gas, the cost per kwh is only 12 cents per kilowatt hour. A 5 gallon propane tank would be worth (after conversion to electricity) 38.5 kilowatt hours. (roughly half the energy of a Tesla battery pack).

If you are running your golf cart at a full 5797 watts, it would run for more than 6 and a half hours.

http://www.erpud.com/comparison.htm

ohiovr
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Re: Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by ohiovr »

Oh I forgot to mention that it would not weigh much. You'd only need 200 square cm. I haven't done the proper calculations on its weight estimate but it should be similar to a gas piston propeller aircraft engine.

ohiovr
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Re: Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by ohiovr »

Or you can use the thermionic engine to help harvest solar energy. A solar energy to hydrogen converter would be better than 50% efficient (1000 watts per m in to 530 out, hydrogen). You can burn hydrogen as a fuel for a thermionic converter.

Aero
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Re: Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by Aero »

So unless I use compressed natural gas it is going to cost more to operate than charging my batteries? I've never checked my charger efficiency but I thought it was pretty good. And I'm still thinking about the motor controller. You did mention that the output from the thermionic device could be controlled? But I need to look further into my motor controller in order to ask an intelligent question.

Solving the limited range issue is still a major benefit. And I did notice my neighbor's propane barbeque tank which might be safer, more convenient to obtain, fit to a burner, and refill than a kerosene tank. But will things all physically fit together in the battery compartment.

Re hydrogen option. Naa, I need to focus on something that is a straight forward conversion without any safety questions from the local authorities when I apply for the low speed vehicle street permit.
Aero

ohiovr
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Re: Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by ohiovr »

Now if you run a golf course, chances are good you may have a snack shop or restaurant, which happens to have a deep fryer. If you have waste vegetable oil you can use that as fuel for a thermionic golf cart. Each gallon would be good for 11 kilowatt hours.

ohiovr
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Re: Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by ohiovr »

Aero wrote:So unless I use compressed natural gas it is going to cost more to operate than charging my batteries? I've never checked my charger efficiency but I thought it was pretty good. And I'm still thinking about the motor controller. You did mention that the output from the thermionic device could be controlled? But I need to look further into my motor controller in order to ask an intelligent question.

Solving the limited range issue is still a major benefit. And I did notice my neighbor's propane barbeque tank which might be safer, more convenient to obtain, fit to a burner, and refill than a kerosene tank. But will things all physically fit together in the battery compartment.

Re hydrogen option. Naa, I need to focus on something that is a straight forward conversion without any safety questions from the local authorities when I apply for the low speed vehicle street permit.
You can use pretty much anything for fuel.
http://www.claverack.com/content/heating-options
Even wood pellets or walnut shells or dried orange rhinds.

But your fuel handling system gets a little more complicated

I'm not sure about the sophistication of a golf cart's electric drive, I figure it is just DC. But if it is AC, then the thermoelectronic converter might hold a big advantage.
Last edited by ohiovr on Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ohiovr
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Re: Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by ohiovr »

The simplest solution would be to buy a combined heat/power model and use the engine rejection heat to heat your hot water heater and use the electricity to charge your existing golf carts. Then it really gets cheap...

MSimon
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Re: Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by MSimon »

Linear Technology makes some pretty nice Cuk/SEPIC converters that can buck/boost 10A @ 48V. So you need not exactly match the current source to the battery voltage. Fast charge of a 48V battery requires about 58V.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

ohiovr
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Re: Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by ohiovr »

I've had some correspondence with Dr. Mannhart. He says that my AC modulation idea is feasable. If it could work it would be a game changer in a lot of areas. You could have an electromotive car that didn't have a separate and expensive motor controller. It could make refining steel and metals with inductance heaters commonplace. And a redonculously powerful audio amplifier. A solar engine based on a thermoelectronic converter could make grid synchronized AC current without those super expensive inverters.

At the most primitive level, you could produce hydrogen during the day and store it in a silo to burn at night or whenever you need more power. The overall efficiency is still more than 20%!

Batteries haha

MSimon
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Re: Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by MSimon »

ohiovr wrote:I've had some correspondence with Dr. Mannhart. He says that my AC modulation idea is feasable. If it could work it would be a game changer in a lot of areas. You could have an electromotive car that didn't have a separate and expensive motor controller. It could make refining steel and metals with inductance heaters commonplace. And a redonculously powerful audio amplifier. A solar engine based on a thermoelectronic converter could make grid synchronized AC current without those super expensive inverters.

At the most primitive level, you could produce hydrogen during the day and store it in a silo to burn at night or whenever you need more power. The overall efficiency is still more than 20%!

Batteries haha
A link to your AC modulation idea? Just that alone.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

ohiovr
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Re: Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by ohiovr »

MSimon wrote:
ohiovr wrote:I've had some correspondence with Dr. Mannhart. He says that my AC modulation idea is feasable. If it could work it would be a game changer in a lot of areas. You could have an electromotive car that didn't have a separate and expensive motor controller. It could make refining steel and metals with inductance heaters commonplace. And a redonculously powerful audio amplifier. A solar engine based on a thermoelectronic converter could make grid synchronized AC current without those super expensive inverters.

At the most primitive level, you could produce hydrogen during the day and store it in a silo to burn at night or whenever you need more power. The overall efficiency is still more than 20%!

Batteries haha
A link to your AC modulation idea? Just that alone.
Here is a link to the idea:
http://ohiovr.com/documents/problems%20 ... ectronicAC

But you should start here for better understanding:

http://ohiovr.com/documents/problems%20 ... Electronic

paperburn1
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Re: Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by paperburn1 »

but I can not buy one yet?
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ohiovr
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Re: Thermionic Converter Designer

Post by ohiovr »

paperburn1 wrote:but I can not buy one yet?
Sorry.. I would love to buy one also but no one has made it yet. The thermoelectronic effect was just announced in December 2013. Dr. Mannhart says he is looking for a commercial company with interest in the technology. I don't have the funds to develop it myself yet.

It took Cyclone 7 years to go from concept to product. It might take a similar amount of time with this.

-Scott

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