The key performance requirement for the new helicopter is to lift a 27,000-lb. external payload 110 nm in high/hot conditions (3,000 ft./91.5F). As the diameter of the seven-blade main rotor is the same as the CH-53E’s, at 79 ft., the additional lifting capacity comes from aerodynamic improvements to the blades and increased power to drive the rotor from the three 7,500-shp GE38-1B turboshafts.
“The extra lift is basically aerodynamic performance,” says Torok. “We are saying it has three times the lift of the E, but there is margin built into our performance calculations. If we apply that margin to the E, the CH-53K has closer to four times the lift capability.”
They needed a raison d'etre now that the MV-22 is in service. It's make a good showing or find themselves eclipsed by better technology.
Last I looked (which was some years ago) the West's chopper tech was still significantly behind that of the Russians. Granted our avionics still rule but the general stats enhanced by this new entrant (and is it REALLY an all new chopper? I don't think so.) of American and European choppers have in the past significantly lagged those from Russia.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis
53 is not going anywhere. It is the only Heavy Lift in the navy/marine inventory. MV-22 is no where close in capacity.
Some idiots thought they could fund 22 with 53 money by doing in the 53 program. Since then reality of operational needs has set in and 53s will stick around a bit more.
As for rotary tech, I would not say the Russians are ahead. There is a lot too that statement, and it is not just about avionics.
What do you base your thought on?
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)
Was a study I did about a decade ago that the Russian cold war era attack helos excelled in almost every stat against their Western counterparts--range, weapons load, speed, maneuverability, maintenance figures, etc. Stands out in my memory as the only field the Soviets really dominated in since we were flying F-86 Sabre jets against MiG 15's and 17's.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis
Like to see it and what you based it on. Source info. etc.
Is it hung somewhere?
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)
But which versions of Apache and Hind?
And there is more to that comparison on just hardware, although I fund it interesting that any Hind variant would beat out a Long Bow, it is also about force integration and use. And from that perspective there is simply no comparison.
I am very curious about the metrics set you selected for the analysis. It does not sound like it was comprehensive, and am I wondering about accuracy of data cited. I just sounds like you attempted a relatively simple quantitative comparison. I am suspect to the validity, not having seen it. Especially if it was not comprehensive and was limited in scope, to include leaving out the force integration and employment qualitative analysis.
Your blanket statement about rating is what keyed me. If you can provide further information on what you did (like the paper itself), that would be useful to discuss your finding.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)
ladajo wrote:. . .just sounds like you attempted a relatively simple quantitative comparison.
That's what it was, and you're right that force integration is key, but it's not key to the statement I made above about the stats of those helos. The stats were, 20 years ago; that the Russians were building more capable helos, especially as regards weapons load and range--the two key elements that determine mission capability for an attack helo, as well as maintenance requirements which is also surprisingly important.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis
It is my opinion that selecting a few quantitative metrics and (what may be suspect) maintenance requirements assessment(s) would not give a very useful look to actual capability or effectiveness.
This type of "analysis" is done routinely in the media and is fraught with supposition, false assumptions, innaccuracies and cherry picks that paint completely unjustified or defendable pictures.
Even the Russians blind themselves with this type of assessment methodology, and in that I have first hand experience. It is sad to say the least.
It is way more than legs & lift, it is really about finesse, reliability to meet the task and integration into the broader effort and problem set.
I can do way more with stuff I know will do what it is suppossed to than things that may not.
"Look at my cool toy that can shoot 500lb Warhead rockets at your stuff. Please ignore the fact that it may not get to you due to crew incompetance, mechanical reliability, or lack of required supporting arms coordination or availability. Also ignore that just because it can carry 500lb warhead rockets does not mean that they will fire or hit you. Or even be on the helicopter when I want them to be. And most importantly, please ignore that you can see me coming long before I can shoot you, and that you have multiple layers of engagment systems that could swat me from the sky before I get into a viable launch envelope. Oh, and don't think about any counter measures you may have for rocket targeting, either left or right of me pushing the button. And for god's sake, what ever you do, don't attack my staging areas. And for the record, we really didn't have a lot of good-luck when using our super rocket firing helicopters against Afghanistan Farmers and Goat herders that you gave those pesky vintage Stingers too. They, also did a number on us with unguided Rocket Propelled Grenades of all things. But you won't do either, now will you."
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)
ladajo wrote:Please ignore the fact that it may not get to you due to crew incompetance, mechanical reliability, or lack of required supporting arms coordination or availability.
We're agreed. The stats are a small portion of the picture, and especially the older Soviet forces were very poorly integrated by western standards. If there is anyone who can hold a candle to the American forces, it is the Israelis, and that's because of their position and dedication to similar training. One of the most important variables for force is motivation, and socialism is a hugely demotivating influence.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis
Fully agreed. I would add the Brits & Canadians to the short list as well. They do all right, although I would limit that to some degree for Canadian ground forces. Just a factor of less experience at this point in time. But, it would not take them long to spin up and be credible.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)
ladajo wrote:Please ignore the fact that it may not get to you due to crew incompetance, mechanical reliability, or lack of required supporting arms coordination or availability.
We're agreed. The stats are a small portion of the picture, and especially the older Soviet forces were very poorly integrated by western standards. If there is anyone who can hold a candle to the American forces, it is the Israelis, and that's because of their position and dedication to similar training. One of the most important variables for force is motivation, and socialism is a hugely demotivating influence.
Austrian infantry has been pretty kick ass in most joint exercises with the US. We do start to show some lacks in equipment these days though.
Yes well, the American form of military is in no small portion the result of German and Austrian influence during the American Revolutionary war, and in particular as result of the training afforded the troops by the Prussian Baron Von Steuben. It is no surprise that much of American culture both military and at large, is the result of powerful influences from across Europe. If America is a melting pot at all (some say not), it is certain that pot contains many of the best elements of all the West. Part of that is the discipline found in our armed services. It's pretty hard to find anyone in the world who can compare to the US Navy SEALs and anyone you would want to so compare with them is likewise the product of the West. Such discipline generates a plethora of positive influences and outcomes. Why is the language of science and engineering English? Because of these influences.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis
GIThruster wrote:Yes well, the American form of military is in no small portion the result of German and Austrian influence during the American Revolutionary war, and in particular as result of the training afforded the troops by the Prussian Baron Von Steuben. It is no surprise that much of American culture both military and at large, is the result of powerful influences from across Europe. If America is a melting pot at all (some say not), it is certain that pot contains many of the best elements of all the West. Part of that is the discipline found in our armed services. It's pretty hard to find anyone in the world who can compare to the US Navy SEALs and anyone you would want to so compare with them is likewise the product of the West. Such discipline generates a plethora of positive influences and outcomes. Why is the language of science and engineering English? Because of these influences.
"Thanks" to our socialists, the Austrian Bundesheer is chronically underfunded (0.6% of the GDP). Despite this the great performance of the Austrian Infantry, especially the Jagdkommando in international comparison is quite remarkable.
The greatest standing military the world has ever seen was NATO, lead by the U.S., however NATO today is not what it was at it's peak.
That said, the U.S. military is a leap and bound ahead of the nearest competitor. There is not yet a real comparison worth trying in the aggregate. And those that aspire are still a ways off. The best anyone can manage is isolated comparisons that are not that well informed to begin with.
The ability to project and sustain integrated major credible combat power anywhere in the world is unique to the U.S. Military. There really is no other military that can do what we can. In fact, a number of those that are peers or near peers in limited lanes and volume, invariably rely on U.S. capability to be a peer or near peer in that lmited lane and volume. Especially in a power projection format. But this is a synergistic relationship as well, U.S. forces benefit from the augments.
It is particularly amazing to me that with all this power, our people and government have no desire to use it to go out and take what fancies us with it. We could. But we do not. It is not who we are as a nation.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)
