Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Discuss life, the universe, and everything with other members of this site. Get to know your fellow polywell enthusiasts.

Moderators: tonybarry, MSimon

Skipjack
Posts: 6805
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by Skipjack »

Myles Allen +
Richard Alley +
Kevin Anderson +
Sallie Louise Baliunas -
Robert C. Balling, Jr - (AGW is real but less severe than the popular consenus)
Edouard Bard ? (from a google translation of his book cover it seems like he is a + but I am not 100% sure).
Lennart Bengtsson -
Richard A. Betts +
Raymond S. "Ray" Bradley +
Keith R. Briffa +
Wallace Smith Broecker +
Harold E. Brooks +
Kenneth Caldeira ? (seems like a +, but also made some either misrepresented or retracted claims to the contrary, so I gave him a ?)
Mark Cane ?
John Raymond Christy - (AGW is real, but overstated by the IPCC and the mainstream)
William Michael Connolley +
Paul Jozef Crutzen +
Judith A. Curry - (I made her a - since she seems to be at least somewhat sceptical, but could equally be a +)
Kerry Andrew Emanuel +
Matthew England +
Inez Fung +
Peter Gleick +
Jonathan M. Gregory +
Joanna Dorothy Haigh +
James Edward Hansen +
Ann Henderson-Sellers ? (not 100% sure, seems to be a plus, but I made her a ?)
John Theodore Houghton +
Philip Douglas Jones +
Jean Jouzel ?
Thomas R. Karl +
Charles David Keeling +
David W. Keith +
Kurt Lambeck ? (probably a +, but not 100% sure)
Professor. Dr. Mojib Latif - (gave contractory statements, gave him a - , when he might actually be a +)
Richard Siegmund Lindzen -
James Ephraim Lovelock +
Syukuro "Suki" Manabe +
Michael E. Mann +
Gerald Allen "Jerry" Meehl +
Patrick J. ("Pat") Michaels -
Dr. Gordon McBean +
John Francis Brake Mitchell +
Mario José Molina ? (could be a +)
Richard A. Muller +
David Parker ?
William Richard Peltier +
Roger A. Pielke, Sr - ( supports AGW but says CO2 is not the main contributor, but other human caused factors)
Raymond T. Pierrehumbert +
Vicky Pope +
Stefan Rahmstorf +
Veerabhadran Ramanathan +
Joseph J. Romm +
William F. Ruddiman - (supports AGW but has alternative explanation)
Dr. Benjamin D. Santer +
Hans Joachim Schellnhuber +
Gavin A. Schmidt +
Stephen E. Schwartz ?
Dame Julia Mary Slingo +
Richard C. J. Somerville +
Susan Solomon +
Thomas Stocker +
Hans von Storch - (contradicting statements, critical of hype and "alarmists" like Mann, but also supports AGW)
Peter A. Stott +
Henrik Svensmark - (supports GW, but contradicts AGW)
Simon Tett ? (supports AGW, but has alternative explanation for the rapidly increasing warming in recent years)
Peter Andreas Thejll +
Lonnie Thompson +
Micha Tomkiewicz +
Kevin Edward Trenberth +
David Vaughan +
Peter Wadhams ?
John Michael Wallace ?
Andrew James Watson ? (probably a + but havent had time to look)
Dr. Andrew J. Weaver +
Penelope Whetton +
Carl Wunsch - (supports GW but expressed sceptizism on the "certainty" some scientists have expressed about AGW and consequences)

JLawson
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:31 pm
Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by JLawson »

mvanwink5 wrote:Tools of bullying come with politicizing science. Instead of advancing science by politically directing resources to climate science to clarify what human environment impact might be doing to climate, instead, the science has turned into full blown censorship from those in political Power, the current regime in power (sickening to realize those terms now fit our government). Further, significant resources, truly substantial, has been politically directed to this politically corrupted "green" quest, and as with all political resources, large quantities have been siphoned off into the hands of political cronies (crooks, Madoff's). It is a sick circus.

It boils down to, what problem can be so great and horrendous that it is worth the consequence of getting politics involved?

Government climate science has been so corrupted that no one can trust the results of the pro- climate warming government sponsored science research. Propaganda is too thick. Don't think people can't smell propaganda stench from a mile away.
Follow the money. When governments start throwing billions around like water, the 'consensus' will support whatever will get them some of the splash if they support the tossing of billions. It's not about whether the science is correct at that point, it's telling the folks doling out the money what they want to hear in order to keep a few drops coming their way while the friends of those doling out the money get the billions to alleviate 'AGW' through 'green' projects.

And they'll shout down whoever dares threaten their money stream.
mvanwink5 wrote:Australia in this regards has cut their budget for such "science" work from 5 billion to 0.5 billion (likely Australian dollars).
And so the bleeding starts. Expect the AGW proponents to scream about disaster and short time frames even louder now. Funding must be preserved, at all costs.
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.

mvanwink5
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:07 am
Location: N.C. Mountains

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by mvanwink5 »

http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php

Take a look at the annual arctic temperature profile, records in graphic form go back on this site to 1958. If anything, 2013 summer temperature was colder than the temperature in 1958. How is it that the global temperature models could have any relation to reality when the arctic shows no warming in the last 65 years? I smell old mullet, government funded Soviet Pravda like propaganda.

Only flatlanders would believe models of completely chaotic systems will have any predictive ability. And if anyone wants to argue CO2 has had an effect on the arctic temperatures, please explain why summer temperatures in 2013 are not warmer than those in 1958. (CO2 will only affect radiative influenced temperatures in the summer).
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

JLawson
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:31 pm
Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by JLawson »

mvanwink5 wrote:http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php

Take a look at the annual arctic temperature profile, records in graphic form go back on this site to 1958. If anything, 2013 summer temperature was colder than the temperature in 1958. How is it that the global temperature models could have any relation to reality when the arctic shows no warming in the last 65 years? I smell old mullet, government funded Soviet Pravda like propaganda.

Only flatlanders would believe models of completely chaotic systems will have any predictive ability. And if anyone wants to argue CO2 has had an effect on the arctic temperatures, please explain why summer temperatures in 2013 are not warmer than those in 1958. (CO2 will only affect radiative influenced temperatures in the summer).
And they'd tell you quickly that temperature=weather, which does NOT equal climate and you're not a climate scientist anyway so you're too stupid to understand it and certainly not smart enough to evaluate whether their predictions are true or not. So there. :roll:

(Never mind that when you get weather for a long enough time it turns into climate... :shock: )

There's been a lot of time, money, effort and trust invested in the computer models which are being used to guide the anti-warming efforts - despite the fact that there apparently wasn't any consistency expected between reality and the models. At which point you go "Well, if the models aren't expected to even have any correlation between their predicted results and reality, what's the point of the models?"

The point is that there was a lot of money to be made by scaring the chumps who would believe it and be willing to throw money at anyone promising either (a) more 'clarity' in predictive models, or (b) some sort of fix, no matter how oddly esoteric.

(As long as it wasn't nuclear, or 'conventional' energy sources. If Rossi had promoted his box as an anti-AGW energy source, he'd probably have had more money than he'd know what to do with.)
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.

mvanwink5
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:07 am
Location: N.C. Mountains

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by mvanwink5 »

JLawson,
I am fed up with the GWA propaganda and bullying. In fact I am fed up with the leftie Prog crowd bullying period. I am really on the verge of a good rant, so I will spare everyone here of that and stop. :D :D
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

ladajo
Posts: 6258
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by ladajo »

A rant every once and a while is good for the soul.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

GIThruster
Posts: 4686
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by GIThruster »

mvanwink5 wrote:http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php

Take a look at the annual arctic temperature profile, records in graphic form go back on this site to 1958. If anything, 2013 summer temperature was colder than the temperature in 1958.

. . .if anyone wants to argue CO2 has had an effect on the arctic temperatures, please explain why summer temperatures in 2013 are not warmer than those in 1958.
This isn't strictly speaking an argument against global warming. What one needs to remember is that the Earth's temperature is most of all affected by the temperature of the Sun. Without accounting for the stronger influence, there is no way to know what CO2 is actually doing to the Earth's climate.

And let me say again so no one misses it, I am NOT an AGW supporter! I am just saying, these kinds of arguments on both sides are wrong. What one can say from this data is, that the planet is getting colder. Not how or why it is getting colder. However, just in itself this is a key argument since most alarmists pretend the planet is currently getting warmer when it is not. That's the first point to contend with--this pervasive myth that the planet is currently warming when in fact it is cooling. Whether we have a problem next time it warms (because the Sun warms) is an important issue that is being swept aside by the alarmists who are obfuscating.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

mvanwink5
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:07 am
Location: N.C. Mountains

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by mvanwink5 »

GT, :D
You seem to be a arguing for taking activism out of the science. That would be a breath of fresh air. It would require dealing with the insurance company big government cronies (fighting for palace at the trough along with that back stabbing crook Keystone Pipeline and insurance company owning Warren Buffett), Banksters, Big Govt Leftie Progs, just to start. George Orwell would be impressed with the gang of pirates lined up against your proposition to think rationally. My fantasy worry is that this is the end of the Holocene. My counter hope is that General Fusion, Polywell, or some other dark horse fusion will give us heat for green houses and for dealing with the cold. But that is just my crazy speculation + hoped solution.

I repeat, the climate models are complete garbage.
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

JLawson
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:31 pm
Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by JLawson »

mvanwink5 wrote:GT, :D
You seem to be a arguing for taking activism out of the science. That would be a breath of fresh air. It would require dealing with the insurance company big government cronies (fighting for palace at the trough along with that back stabbing crook Keystone Pipeline and insurance company owning Warren Buffett), Banksters, Big Govt Leftie Progs, just to start. George Orwell would be impressed with the gang of pirates lined up against your proposition to think rationally. My fantasy worry is that this is the end of the Holocene. My counter hope is that General Fusion, Polywell, or some other dark horse fusion will give us heat for green houses and for dealing with the cold. But that is just my crazy speculation + hoped solution.

I repeat, the climate models are complete garbage.
If you go by Ruddiman's paper on AGW - http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/Pu ... an2003.pdf - then it could be argued that we're at a point where we're (for lack of a better term) pre-glacial. We should be in the middle of something a bit deeper than the Little Ice Age of recent memory. (Well, a few centuries back...)

But we aren't - and I wonder if there's not going to be a tipping point where we go from "Okay, last winter was kinda rough... chilly but manageable" to "OMG, we'd better start thinking about evacuating everyone north of the 40th Parallel."

If the ice on the Great Lakes makes it through a summer, it may be time to head south.
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.

ladajo
Posts: 6258
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by ladajo »

Oh crap! I live at 41N!
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

mvanwink5
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:07 am
Location: N.C. Mountains

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by mvanwink5 »

Think fusion, it's coming to a power plant near you.
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

krenshala
Posts: 914
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:20 pm
Location: Austin, TX, NorAm, Sol III

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by krenshala »

This reminds me of the Larry Niven novel Fallen Angels. The background for the story is that the radical environmentalists get control of government, put laws into place and take action to "stop global warming" and this brings on an ice age that (per the book) was being held off because of AGW.

JLawson
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:31 pm
Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by JLawson »

ladajo wrote:Oh crap! I live at 41N!
Keep an eye on the Great Lakes then - if the ice there persists through a summer, you might want to consider getting out before the rush.
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.

JLawson
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:31 pm
Location: Georgia
Contact:

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by JLawson »

krenshala wrote:This reminds me of the Larry Niven novel Fallen Angels. The background for the story is that the radical environmentalists get control of government, put laws into place and take action to "stop global warming" and this brings on an ice age that (per the book) was being held off because of AGW.
And despite the freezing the folks who made the laws insisted that they HAD to be enforced rigorously else disaster would occur.

Reality didn't matter.
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.

mvanwink5
Posts: 2143
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:07 am
Location: N.C. Mountains

Re: Ice Cap increase 29%, Reality laughs at Models.

Post by mvanwink5 »

In the Dark Ages, the cold was blamed on witches, nothing has changed, the Progs are still here burning their new targeted boogymen. What is this need for the fall guy to burn at the stake?
Counting the days to commercial fusion. It is not that long now.

Post Reply