A Green Wants to Reduce the Numbr of Humans on Earth

[MSimon]

nanos,

Of course you could build more housing. But certain elites who control what gets built wouldn't like that. Britain is strangling fin-cap.

Hayek in his book "The Road To Serfdom" alluded to that.

Which is why I said in an earlier comment that Britain was deep in the muck.

In America we have a similar problem. Zoning boards prevent shopping centers, work places, and residences from commingling and then get in high dudgeon about urban sprawl.

Socialism is the disease. Smaller government at every level is the cure.

[David_Jay]

Socialism is the disease. Smaller government at every level is the cure.

Sounds like classical values to me...

[Average Joe]

The difficulty I see in raising the standard of living for all is it only gets raised for those with jobs, and that modernisation is all about reducing the number of jobs to reduce costs.

Perhaps if you had a way to share things out a little better, you wouldn't end up with so much povety.

During the last tech/industrial/energy revolution, working hours dropped from 6 - 12's to 5 - 8's.

One of the implications I see for Polywell, if it works, is a similar increase in prosperity. As long as BFR technology can be used by multiple competing interests, everything should get cheaper. So I should be able to maintain my current standard of living with fewer hours or work the same hours and improve my standard of living significantly. Or both, as happened in the 20th century.

But I agree and have puzzled over the condition where great abundance means we don't need everybody to work. I'm speaking of the previously labor intensive jobs - food production, factory work, building roads, etc.

Come on 20 hour work week! Then I'll spend the rest of my time reading and commenting on blogs, or being creative at something else.

[Average Joe]

djolds1 said:

Per an article in the Harvard Business Review (the most expensive periodical I have yet encountered) some years back, taxes do serve a useful purpose in leveling the Gini. Money redistribution keeps money "flowing" through the economy, not locked up in private bank accounts, which acts to reduce the Gini.

However, to steal a line from a certain pastor, the effects of radical pro-Wall Street deregulation are now "coming home to roost." IMO we'll see a successful push for reregulation in the next few years. Not necessarily a bad thing. All the major Western empires of the last 500 years (Spanish, Dutch, British) have fallen in love with finance capitalism shortly before their declines.

Money doesn't get "locked up in private bank accounts". As soon as you put your millions in a bank, it gets re-invested in someone's business. If its invested wisely, it just produces more wealth. Some for the owner, some for the people he hires. See "yacht taxes" for the effect of over-taxing luxury. If the money is invested un-wisely, the previous owner gets poor again and is no longer able to make bad decisions.

Regulation shouldn't be used to make life work out nice for everybody, only to keep bad people from stealing from other people, in all permutations of the words "bad people" and "stealing".

If the west is declining, I think it is more from being too wealthy for our own good, without knowing how to handle that wealth. Too much of it is going to University professors who with their students now have the luxury of indulging left-wing economic theories.

[djolds1]

Money doesn't get "locked up in private bank accounts". As soon as you put your millions in a bank, it gets re-invested in someone's business. If its invested wisely, it just produces more wealth. Some for the owner, some for the people he hires. See "yacht taxes" for the effect of over-taxing luxury. If the money is invested un-wisely, the previous owner gets poor again and is no longer able to make bad decisions.

Response from (Deleted)

"Yes buying a long term bond or a multi-year CD creates investment capital. Now tell me why getting in and out of an options contract four times in one trading day is any different that playing the slots at a casino..."

"Current" finance capitalism is in many ways a closed self-referential game that doesn't trickle down much.

Regulation shouldn't be used to make life work out nice for everybody, only to keep bad people from stealing from other people, in all permutations of the words "bad people" and "stealing".

Maintaining a middle class society has costs. The alternative is the Latin Big man/peon model, and noble/serf from there.

If the west is declining, I think it is more from being too wealthy for our own good, without knowing how to handle that wealth. Too much of it is going to University professors who with their students now have the luxury of indulging left-wing economic theories.

True. General decadence, and the "internal enemy" as my referenced friend above calls them.

[MSimon]

djolds1,

Trading money or options or securities or mortgage backed securities makes all those things more liquid.

Money - irons out temporary imbalances. Or permanent ones. Quick feedback stabilizes the system.

Options - makes commodities more liquid

Securities - irons out temporary imbalances. Or permanent ones. Quick feedback stabilizes the system.

Same for mortgage backed options. No need to wait for actual property sales to see what is going on. They also encourage the quick write off of bad loans. Nonperformers on the books get noticed quicker.

In fact with those systems in place trickle down happens faster and bad decisions are punished more quickly.

If ever there was a peon in this society I'm it. I live better than a king in 1850 due to all that invested capital.

If the west is declining, I think it is more from being too wealthy for our own good, without knowing how to handle that wealth. Too much of it is going to University professors who with their students now have the luxury of indulging left-wing economic theories.

And what is the defining politics of those effete snobs? Communism/socialism - tax the rich heavily or steal them out of existence. It is not fin-cap oriented. In fact they are great beneficiaries of fin-cap without lifting a finger, creating a job, or doing anything economically useful. Pure dead weight. Now a little of that is good. Too much aligned with bad economic polices kills liberty and economies.

In fact the snob disciplines are full of envy about the disciplines that actually make the economy run. Sciences, engineering, marketing, law, etc.

BTW some one recently said: if there are too many university professors on a board - sell. I think GE was mentioned.

[MSimon]

If I was a lefty politician and really wanted to help the poor you know what I would tell my megadonors?

Forget redistribution. You are the experts - start another business. I will get government out of your way. If you are successful we will not tax away your gains if you use them to start even more businesses. A roaring economy will do more for the poor than any government program I could ever devise.

Because what do the poor want? Not just money, but also the opportunity to make a contribution. To be proud of themselves.

It is why I have devoted the last year and a half to Polywell despite my retired status. I want to continue to contribute. I want to maintain my self respect.

[rj40]

<snip>

Its one of the reasons I want to build my own village/town, provide very low cost rented housing so even the poorest can stand a chance to get a roof over their head, rather than having to squeese 50+ people into a 3 bedroom home just to afford to pay the rent.

<snip>

(As such, a Technocratic approach looks worthwhile to examine to see what aspects of it might benefit implimenting in a society, and to that end, I have joined the Network of European Technocrats in an endeavour to test out these theories in a MMORPG environment ... <snip>

Nanos

Have you thought about trying to repeat past experiences with communes and shared housing in your MMORPG scenario? It seems to me that if you can setup similar circumstances to past or current real-world situations, and then get some of the successes and failures to repeat on-line, that might be instructive.

What about past failures? Will you be looking at past situations where things just didn’t work out? Perhaps you can identify a set of circumstances that repeatedly fail, and then avoid them. Or, maybe, do both in your MMORPG? Find some historical community with good records that failed, and then try to repeat the failure. Then try to make adjustments and see what appears to work.

Maybe this is sort of like a Monte Carlo simulation, start with a set of rules, and then let the people in the MMORPG go at it. Then start tinkering with the rules.

Maybe that is the whole point of your MMORPG idea?

I seem to remember a commune setup out in Arizona during the depression. It was eventually sold off in the early 40’s. Casa Grande? Is that it?

[rj40]

djolds1,
And what is the defining politics of those effete snobs? Communism/socialism - tax the rich heavily or steal them out of existence. It is not fin-cap oriented. In fact they are great beneficiaries of fin-cap without lifting a finger, creating a job, or doing anything economically useful. Pure dead weight. Now a little of that is good. Too much aligned with bad economic polices kills liberty and economies.

MSimon

I read something recently where the writer suggested taking a percentage of money away from the endowments and contributions of large highly successful universities (Harvard, Yale, etc.) and redistributing that money to smaller colleges and universities that have a less accomplished student body. The argument goes that Harvard and Yale and the rest really don’t need that extra money, however smaller community colleges do. Or, at least, they need it more. Their students don’t get the benefit of the Ivey league, and for that they suffer. I don’t know if this was tongue and cheek or how it went over in the community.

There was also the definitely tongue and cheek call to redistribute grades. Every student would get a number grade, maybe from one to one thousand. Every few weeks, the students with higher numbers would have some of that taken away and given to the students with the lowest numbers. Not a lot, maybe 10 to 15% taken from the higher number students and given to the lowest number students. Of course, after a while, no one would hire anyone from a school that did this.

By the way, what does fin-cap mean?

[MSimon]

fin-cap is a term often used by Bucky Fuller (I don't know who coined it).

It means finance capitalism. Often referred to by its detractors as market manipulation.

I suppose its opposite would be production capitalism - or as it was referred to in the Classic Cary Grant / Jane Russel Movie Our Girl Friday - production for use.

You can watch or download the movie here:

http://www.archive.org/details/his_girl_friday

[Average Joe]

Maintaining a middle class society has costs. The alternative is the Latin Big man/peon model, and noble/serf from there.

djolds1 - what costs are you referring to re: maintaining the middle class?

Also, I was speaking of investment in all of its forms, not option trading or any specifically risky behaviours. I think the riskier forms of investing are a way for smarter people to take money from dumber people, and for dumb people to become smarter. I'm sure there are more than a few people who are now much more knowlegeable about mortgage risk, interest only loans and 100% financing. My parents would never have considered putting their home at risk of foreclosure by taking out credit they couldn't afford and wasn't secured by the house. They remembered the lessons learned in 1929, and they taught them to me as well.

Nanos refers to the problems of affordable housing in the UK (I think that's right?). Well in the (sort of) free market in the US, a lot of housing just became a lot more affordable. Trying to reduce the pain seems nice, but its not really reduced, just shifted around.

So referring back to the original thread topic and polywell fusion... Will a new quantum increase in prosperity lead to more population and overuse of the planet or will it result in negative population growth and social decay? Is there a "wisdom feedback mechanism" that can be applied to human nature? Is this way outside the scope of this forum?

[djolds1]

djolds1,

Trading money or options or securities or mortgage backed securities makes all those things more liquid.

Money - irons out temporary imbalances. Or permanent ones. Quick feedback stabilizes the system.

Options - makes commodities more liquid

Securities - irons out temporary imbalances. Or permanent ones. Quick feedback stabilizes the system.

Same for mortgage backed options. No need to wait for actual property sales to see what is going on. They also encourage the quick write off of bad loans. Nonperformers on the books get noticed quicker.

In fact with those systems in place trickle down happens faster and bad decisions are punished more quickly.

If ever there was a peon in this society I'm it. I live better than a king in 1850 due to all that invested capital.

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/archive/2906.html

"Specifically, the two researchers found that the greater the volume of money flowing through the economy and the more often it changes hands, the greater the equality. Conversely, the more volatile investment returns are, the richer the rich tend to get."

Volatile finance-capitalist markets = greater income distribution inequality = closer and closer movement to serf/noble social systems.

And what is the defining politics of those effete snobs? Communism/socialism - tax the rich heavily or steal them out of existence. It is not fin-cap oriented. In fact they are great beneficiaries of fin-cap without lifting a finger, creating a job, or doing anything economically useful. Pure dead weight. Now a little of that is good. Too much aligned with bad economic polices kills liberty and economies.

It was Spengler who pointed out that, just as Buddhism is the final philosophical development of the late-"modern" Hindu culture, and Stoicism is for Classical Antiquity, so ethical Socialism will be the final philosophical idea of the West's Humanist Enlightenment Modern period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spengler%2 ... tion_model

Inevitably the cosmopolitan world-city wins. It rules for several centuries, becomes hopelessly decadent, collapses, and a new culture emerges from the non-urban Dark Ages that follow.

As of now we're entering the victory phase of the cosmopolitan world-city. It should be ascendant for 20-25 generations.

In fact the snob disciplines are full of envy about the disciplines that actually make the economy run. Sciences, engineering, marketing, law, etc.

BTW some one recently said: if there are too many university professors on a board - sell. I think GE was mentioned.

The politicization of hard science (Global Warmingism) and endless fad-theories of the "social sciences" are killing respect for scholarship. I just hope we get an acceptable range of results before popular and elite disgust and disdain become great enough to strangle funding, support, tolerance of technological change and thus most further progress and inquiry.

Once that sets in we're looking at 40-60 generations of effective intellectual stasis.

Duane

[pstudier]

So referring back to the original thread topic and polywell fusion... Will a new quantum increase in prosperity lead to more population and overuse of the planet or will it result in negative population growth and social decay? Is there a "wisdom feedback mechanism" that can be applied to human nature? Is this way outside the scope of this forum?

An increase in prosperity in underdeveloped countries will reduce population growth. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition . IMHO, this is a good thing. I don't see why a stable or slowing shrinking population will result in social decay. The biggest threats are villagerism, not lack of population growth.

[MSimon]

dj,

America has avoided the worst features of urbanization by inventing the suburbs.

In addition in America "shall issue" (concealed fire arms permits) is now the rule in 39 states and may issue the rule in 8 more.

There is a nice graphic of the evolution of those laws in the 50 states over the last 20 years or so here:

http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives ... ot_bi.html

American culture is so different from that of the rest of the world that it is hard to imagine. We are not a people of blood but of an idea. This is so different from the experience of the rest of the world that most non-Americans can't get their arms around it.

So far lots of cultures have looked at America and seen softness and weakness. They get ideas. So far we have whipped every one who has tried. I don't think that era is quite over.

I do think that Europe falls into the rhythm you describe.

I think Spengler may be right about decadence. But America may not fit well into that pattern. You have to kick us hard to get us to respond. When we do we keep at it until we get unconditional surrender.

============

Let me add that rapid technological change (something you approve of) leads to lots of volatility.

So the question is: what do you want? In America we have chosen change.

BTW the global warming stupidity is about over in America. I get around a lot of different sites. Two years ago the warmists were in ascendancy. Now it is more balance with the warmists somewhat under half. Another couple of cold winters and late springs and it will be over in America.

A year ago I would post anti-warmist science and I would get strong arguments. Now a days hardly a peep.

Add in the new Green ethos "Buy a tank of ethanol, starve a child" and even the warmists are becoming less sure of their solutions if not of their beliefs.

=======

One of the things that makes income inequality less of a problem in America is that we believe that a good idea well executed can shift your position in the class structure. A bad idea poorly executed and you get another cause for shifts in who the members of a particular class are.

And it is not just a belief. Statistics show (for what ever they are worth) that it happens. No one is stuck in America except those who want to be.

[Nanos]

> Have you thought about trying to repeat past experiences with
> communes and shared housing in your MMORPG scenario?

Yes!

The entire MMORPG environment is for testing (Its also a hook to get people to join a chat/forum system and have something to do, as I imagine its easier to get people to join a game, than a new chat system.) with real people.


> It seems to me that if you can setup similar circumstances to past
> or current real-world situations, and then get some of the successes
> and failures to repeat on-line, that might be instructive.

Very much what I had in mind.


> What about past failures? Will you be looking at past situations where
> things just didn’t work out? Perhaps you can identify a set of
> circumstances that repeatedly fail, and then avoid them.
> Or, maybe, do both in your MMORPG?
> Find some historical community with good records that failed

This is the nub of the problem I am finding, there are no good records!

(I spent 2 years working in the UK national archives, surrounded by records for everything, but there are no good records for anything like this anywhere from what I can gather.)

I have spoken to people who have lived in failed communities (I have spent decades chatting to litterly thousands of people to get an insight into what is really happening.) and their stories conflict heavily with 'offical' documentation from the people running such communities...

Basically, the written records that exist say one thing, yet people who lived there say quite another.

Its the same with architecture, which I have had an interest in for 40 years, even today we get modern green buildings which appear on the news as all singing and all dancing, yet I'll find people who live and work in them who tell me about all the broken aspects, the bad design, and how they plain don't work!

Yet we are not learning from our past mistakes, as no one is documenting them...

I would want to provide raw data of everything I could so communities can be studied in depth.

As I've mentioned, I have also spent 2 years playing a MMORPG beforehand (Eve-online) and this gave me a good insight how useful such an environment is at studying peoples behaviours.


> and then try to repeat the failure. Then try to make
> adjustments and see what appears to work.

Agreed.

Is one of the key reasons I'm working with the European Technocrats, they are willing to investigate and go with whatever works best.


> Maybe this is sort of like a Monte Carlo simulation, start with a set of
> rules, and then let the people in the MMORPG go at it. Then start
> tinkering with the rules.

Not really the rules I want to alter, I want to get as close to a real life simulation as possible (starting off in the stone age, much to the disagreement of various people who want me to start with rockets and spaceships..) and try to find working solutions to get the best from people that would work in the real world.

(Eve-online for example, people behave there just like they behave in the real world, but its more transparent due to the simplisticity, and development/change is faster due to more resources being available to play with.)


> Maybe that is the whole point of your MMORPG idea?

Basically yes, I'll be providing the environment only, and allow access to the data for others (and myself when I get time!) to study. I'm hopeful that groups like the Technocrats will then use it to study the effects of their particular style of management to see how it compares with others approach.

The tools/options available in Eve-Online for example was/are very primitive, and often buggy, and this is an area I can help with in particular.


I recently came across a group of wealthy middleclass folk in the UK who all complain about living in a crime ridden area, and spent 2 years trying to agree on what to do with their $20 million combined wealth, the only thing they could agree on, was to disband!


> Come on 20 hour work week

Working hours is interesting, as my last 9 to 5 job I worked 13 hours a day (And Saturdays..), and my girlfriend now works 12 hours a day!

I reckon with very cheap rented housing, one could afford to only work 10 hours a week, because you wouldn't have the need to pay a huge mortgage.

The reason to keep it only rented is to avoid people selling up and others buying the housing and pushing the price up beyond the reach of those at the bottom.


Thanks for pointing out the Hayek book by the way.


> Nanos refers to the problems of affordable housing in the UK
> (I think that's right?).

Yes. (Local government doesn't help the matter either, rents have doubled in the last few years since they decided us poor needed improved properties to live in, so insisted all landlords brought housing up to code, if I'd wanted a home without windows held in by gaffa tape I'd pay for one, if I could afford it!) As I see it, much wealth is being sucked out of the system by housing costs, that people are slaves to their jobs, no longer to put food on the table, but to make sure the table is under a roof!

With increasing distances between workplace and home, transport costs are high, and increasing heavily due to traffic calming measures, parking restrictions. (Local businesses for example are already seeing a big dent in profits due to no one being able to park outside their shops anymore and thus going to out of town shopping malls.)

Its as if every effort is being made to make us less productive, and at the same time, milk us for every penny to pay for our housing. Having travelled around the UK to revisit old places, which a couple of decades ago was boom towns, are now ghost towns.

Even in London, I find it takes much digging to uncover true stats, like the real level of unemployment in my patch is not the offically given figure of 7%, but rather 16.8%

All the time I am after the truth of what is really happening at the street level, I constantly meet people whose voice is not being heard by those higher up.