You can't make this stuff up

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DeltaV
Posts: 2245
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:05 am

You can't make this stuff up

Post by DeltaV »

Any Hollywood script that had the US military leasing a Chinese satellite for regional secure communications would be immediately tossed in the trash, labeled "implausible".

And yet...

House Panel Shoves Pentagon-China Satellite Deal Out of the Airlock

Stubby
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:05 pm

Re: You can't make this stuff up

Post by Stubby »

that would be completely stupid wtf
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

DeltaV
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Re: You can't make this stuff up

Post by DeltaV »

Would be? They want to renew the lease.

choff
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Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: You can't make this stuff up

Post by choff »

Why is this so strange, after all, Wall St. financed Hitler and the Russian Communist revolution. Wall St. provided financing to the Soviet bloc throughout the Vietnam war. Much of the titanium used in American weapons came from those same Soviets, this is just more business as usual.
CHoff

DeltaV
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Re: You can't make this stuff up

Post by DeltaV »

US weapons designs hacked by Chinese, report claims (Update)
The Post said it obtained a confidential version of the report with a list of the designs hacked including the advanced Patriot missile system; an Army system for shooting down ballistic missiles; and the Navy's Aegis ballistic-missile defense system.

Also breached, according the daily were designs for combat aircraft and ships, including the F/A-18 fighter jet, the V-22 Osprey, the Black Hawk helicopter and the Navy's new Littoral Combat Ship.

Another program on the list is the massive F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, according to the Post, which had been subject to a previous computer intrusion dating back to 2007.
Lewis said it was not clear when these breaches took place, but noted that "people did wake up to this issue in the last couple of years and made it harder."

But he said that "between 1999 and 2009 it was an open door for Chinese (cyber) espionage."
A neat little trick called "dissolution of responsibility" (prevalent in the medical industry, on Wall Street and in politics), where the players are continually rotated so that no particular individual(s) can be blamed, was probably used, so that no one goes to jail, or to death row.

DeltaV
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Re: You can't make this stuff up

Post by DeltaV »

A list of the U.S. weapons designs and technologies compromised by hackers
The following is reproduced from the nonpublic version of the
Defense Science Board report “Resilient Military Systems and the Advanced Cyber Threat”:

Table 2.2 Expanded partial list of DoD system designs and technologies compromised via cyber exploitation

SYSTEM DESIGNS

Terminal High Altitude Area Defense
Patriot Advanced Capability-3
Extended Area Protection and Survivability System (EAPS)
F-35
V-22
C-17
Hawklink
Advanced Harpoon Weapon Control System
Tanker Conversions
Long-term Mine Reconnaissance System
Global Hawk
Navy antenna mechanisms
Global Freight Management System
Micro Air Vehicle
Brigade Combat Team Modernization
Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System
USMC Tracked Combat Vehicles
Warfighter Information Network-Tactical (WIN-T)
T700 Family of Engines
Full Authority Digital Engine Controller (FADEC)
UH-60 Black Hawk
AMRAAM (AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile)
Affordable Weapons System
Littoral Combat Ship
Navy Standard Missile (SM-2,3,6)
P-8A/Multi-Mission Aircraft
F/A and EA-18
RC-135 Detect./Collect.
Mk54 Light Weight Torpedo

TECHNOLOGIES

Directed Energy
UAV video system
Specific Emitter identification
Nanotechnology
Dual Use Avionics
Fuze/Munitions safety and development
Electronic Intelligence Processing
Tactical Data Links
Satellite Communications
Electronic Warfare
Advanced Signal Processing Technologies for Radars
Nanostructured Metal Matrix Composite for Light Weight Ballistic Armor
Vision-aided Urban Navigation & Collision Avoidance for Class I Unmanned Air Vehicles (UAV)
Space Surveillance Telescope
Materials/processing technologies
IR Search and Track systems
Electronic Warfare systems
Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch
Rail Gun
Side Scan sonar
Mode 5 IFF
Export Control, ITAR, Distribution Statement B,C,D Technical Information
CAD drawings, 3D models, schematics
Software code
Critical technology
Vendor/supply chain data
Technical manuals
PII (email addresses, SSN, credit card numbers, passwords, etc.)
Attendee lists for program reviews and meetings

ANTIcarrot
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Re: You can't make this stuff up

Post by ANTIcarrot »

How exactly is this different from US military data passing through any other part of the internet not owned by the US? Assuming the IT guys aren't amazingly stupid the data will be sent by some kind of high level VPN and will be impossible to read. In the worst case scenario where the Chinese do cut them off, the US could quickly purchase (more expensive and/or lower bandwidth) access via another african satellite and be back in business in a matter of hours. (Or switch to on of their own 56k bandwidth satelites in a minute or so.) Given that the political fallout would last much longer than that, there's no real possibility the chinese would do even that.

Getting back to amaing stupidity:
Yes I find the fact that the chinese now know where to send communications, which frequencies, where they came from to be of such a huge security risk already.
Satellite upfeed links are either massive installations you can easily find on google earth, or tiny little backpack devices that move around. Frequencies in satellite communications are always dictated by the satellite. The IQ and general education of some of the people complaining abot this doesn't seem particularly impressive.
Some light reading material: Half Way To Anywhere, The Rocket Company, Space Technology, The High Fronter, Of Wolves And Men, Light On Shattered Water, The Ultimate Weapon, any Janes Guide, GURPS Bio-Tech, ALIENS Technical Manual, The God Delusion.

DeltaV
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Re: You can't make this stuff up

Post by DeltaV »

It's not just about knowing frequencies and uplink locations.

Having a potential adversary's data stream go through your own satellite means that you don't have to have listening assets positioned within their uplink beam patterns (steathy, geostationary full-time or LEO/MEO part-time), or covert ground-based receivers inside the downlink pattern, or cable/fiber taps.

Admittedly, covert or disguised ground-based receivers are easy, with the broad downlink patterns of commercial sats.

It's a matter of convenience, knowing you'll get all the data all the time since you have the best, real-time signal possible.

More importantly, if your satellite also has some "undocumented" features, you can play games like subtly varying polarizations, carrier freqs, noise content, delays, etc. to characterize the actual performance numbers of your customer's equipment, things they might not want you to know in a full-blown conflict.

hanelyp
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Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: You can't make this stuff up

Post by hanelyp »

Stupid to depend on hardware controlled by or sourced from a potential adversary. Mind numbingly stupid these days if sensitive military data is transmitted without end to end encryption. But even assuming they can't read your data, if they control the hardware they could make a DoS attack easily.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

krenshala
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Location: Austin, TX, NorAm, Sol III

Re: You can't make this stuff up

Post by krenshala »

I have nothing to base this on, but it is possible this is for non-critical comms with the critical/sensitive stuff still going through better-trusted/more-secure satellites.

If it is for more sensitive traffic, well ... being able to watch the traffic go past is needed no matter how difficult (or easy) it is to decrypt.

kcdodd
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Location: Austin, TX

Re: You can't make this stuff up

Post by kcdodd »

Not to mention that some encryption techniques are also vulnerable to man-in-the-middle attacks, which is exactly what a satellite could serve as. The military would need another communication system under their own control anyway to be immune to that type of attack.
Carter

DeltaV
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Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:05 am

Re: You can't make this stuff up

Post by DeltaV »

http://phys.org/news/2013-06-china-supe ... stest.html

A successful long-term (longer than US election cycles) strategy:
Improve on stolen US/Western R&D using your own record-breaking supercomputers to leapfrog
the decadent, imperialist, hegemonist, feudalist, colonialist, capitalist running dogs, all the while
propping up their debt-ridden economies with loans that you can stop at the time of your choosing.

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http://thediplomat.com/2013/01/31/chinas-new-militancy/
In this environment, Chinese military officers can get away with advocating “short, sharp wars” and talking about the need to “strike first.” Their boldness suggests, as some privately say, that General Secretary Xi is associating with generals and admirals who think war with the U.S. might be a good idea.
Nonetheless, there are increasing signs of a military breaking free of civilian control. Last year, there were two sets of coup rumors that circulated around China, one in January and the other in March. The stories may not be true, but that’s almost beside the point. These rumors went viral in China not only because they were sensational but also because, for many Chinese citizens, they were credible. They were credible because top leaders had conditioned the Chinese people over the last several years to believe the top brass had assumed a central role in Beijing politics.
Beijing’s expansive territorial claims are perhaps the inevitable result of the Communist Party’s trajectory. As Pentagon consultant Edward Luttwak notes, “Militant nationalism is the only possible substitute for ex-communists who seek to retain power.” So it is natural that Xi Jinping is talking tough and that the military is assuming a frontal role in expanding territory and waters under China’s control.
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There are basically two ways this can go.
1) Communism (China's version and the vestiges in NK, Russia and elsewhere) finally implodes completely,
despite the nationalist fervor stirred up by the military, and they fully join the rest of the world,
OR
2) China strategically defeats the West and becomes the dominant world power as leader of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation.

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I'm not saying that this is not all just a game played by competing factions of a covert ruling elite seeking a single world government.
Just looking at the practical ramifications in the near term.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Re: You can't make this stuff up

Post by Skipjack »

DeltaV wrote:http://phys.org/news/2013-06-china-supe ... stest.html

There are basically two ways this can go.
1) Communism (China's version and the vestiges in NK, Russia and elsewhere) finally implodes completely,
despite the nationalist fervor stirred up by the military, and they fully join the rest of the world,
Just a nitpick, but China has not been communist since Ping. It is a oligarchic dictatorship, but not communistic.

DeltaV
Posts: 2245
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:05 am

Re: You can't make this stuff up

Post by DeltaV »

You probably believe that Russia is no longer "Communist" either. I don't see much difference between the old CPSU Mafia and current Russian Mafia.

Seriously, a KGB Lt. Colonel running Russia since 1999?
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Is Russia's Press Freedom Dead? (2006)
America's press freedom is heading that way.
Why the AP scandal is so scary
Without a free press, democracy is doomed.


New Lies for Old: The Communist Strategy of Deception and Disinformation
http://archive.org/details/GolitsynAnat ... ForOldOnes

The Perestroika Deception : Memoranda to the Central Intelligence Agency

Through the Eyes of the Enemy: The Autobiography of Stanislav Lunev

I'm not saying that the plan of long-term strategic deception (doctrinal split between Russia and China, Glasnost/Perestroika, Capitalist China, etc.) will definitely work, without the "camouflage" actually becoming the reality, just saying that the Communist "old guard" is still calling the shots behind the scenes, until that generation (Putin's) dies out. They still have a chance of success as long as the West remains in a trance state.

MSimon
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Re: You can't make this stuff up

Post by MSimon »

Why is this so strange, after all, Wall St. financed Hitler and the Russian Communist revolution. Wall St. provided financing to the Soviet bloc throughout the Vietnam war. Much of the titanium used in American weapons came from those same Soviets, this is just more business as usual.
And do not forget our distributed nemesis the drug cartels. Created by world wide drug prohibition. And who is the chief mover and shaker in seeing that all countries of the world join and stick to the prohibition regime (since the 1920s - maybe earlier)?

The USA.

Why? Well if you are going to do black ops and wet work with plausible deniability it helps to have a large pool of criminals to draw recruits and operatives from.

The Brits have been running this scam since the conquest of India and China. Our Intel agencies are offshoots of the Brit agencies since WW2.

My conclusion? Drug Prohibition is run by the Intel agencies of the world.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

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