Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

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Maui
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by Maui »

MSimon wrote:Maui,

You assume that people don't think for themselves and can't judge a viewpoint based it its merits. If so we have a much bigger problem than corps spending money anonymously on messages.
You're naive enough to think that everyone does their homework on the viewpoints? If $ didn't influence the races, ppl wouldn't be spending it.

Maui
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by Maui »

hanelyp wrote:A corporation is not a collective of the employees but of shareholders, and it is shareholder money the corporation spends. Employees engage with the corporation as suppliers of labor for a mutually agreed to price. The big gripe some of us have with unions is the tyrannical power they have under the law in some states to compel membership.
It that really that much different than with corporations? Even without Citizen's United, it would have been hard enough to try track who gives money to whom and decide where not to shop and what not to buy because of it. Now, it's hopeless. My spent dollars are being compelled into political causes I don't agree with just the same as your tax dollars are.

The problem with this corporate/union "free speech" is that its allowing a very small minority of people --primarily those with interests much different thatn the average American-- to drive the political conversation. Candidates should be working for your vote or my vote just as much as Sheldon Adelson's or Richard Trumka's.

TDPerk
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by TDPerk »

@Maui

"If $ didn't influence the races, ppl wouldn't be spending it."

If people don't have the right to spend money to influence races, we have no free speech or first amendment. I very cordially invite you to expire as promptly as possible if you intend to overturn the revolution of 1775. Call that a death threat and be laughed be at. Attempt to arrange it, and you'll very likely have many tens of million of people trying to kill you in protection of themselves and their rights it if it looks like you will achieve it. The bedrock of what human society has best done can be questioned, and you'd better have a better argument than facile musing if you want to get any traction or respect.

There is no improvement possible over the condition of the exchange and promulgation of information thought to be of political use by a person or people, to be as broadly arranged for as that person or those people can arrange for it. Political speech cannot be justly compelled, hence no compelled public support of political campaigns can be justly done by the power of law. Political speech cannot be justly prevented, hence no restrictions on persons spending their money as they see fit to amplify their speech are tolerable--you can hire as many TV ads or printing presses as you can do.

Supporting the campaigns of politicians with tax money, is a violation of the rights of every person not to have to support the speech of persons whom they politically oppose. It is compelled speech. Not only no, but hell no, and be damned to you. It's an assinine idea of such monumental proportions it beggars powers of description in any language.

"The problem with this corporate/union "free speech" is that its allowing a very small minority of people --primarily those with interests much different thatn the average American-- to drive the political conversation. Candidates should be working for your vote or my vote just as much as Sheldon Adelson's or Richard Trumka's."

You don't see they only court a Sheldon Addison or Richard Trumka, to have the greatest efficiency they can in seeking your vote or my vote?

"You're naive enough to think that everyone does their homework on the viewpoints"

You're naive enough to think that's a counterpoint? That it would be changed or improved in way by eliminating free speech?

" you are handing out masks and megaphones to a select few so that they may drown out everyone else's free speech in anonymity"

No you aren't. The people giving them money so they can hire the megaphone are doing that, and anyone has the right to spend their last dime on politics if they so chose. As for anonymity, I suppose you'd have done away with Publius and Silence Dogood at that. You have your choice of being that vile or that stupid, you pick which...although I doubt you'll be able to do other than show which in past and future posts . As for unions, right to work laws will give them all the influence their good done to employees merits them; and they will fade away.

"I would be okay if Target wants exercise "free speech" and run an add advocating a particular candidate. But I think Target should have to attach their name to the ad the same way the candidate's themselves have to. ("We are Target, and we approve this message.")"

And it's a fine thing if they run the same ad anonymously. It doesn't change the legitimacy of the political speech, or the content of the message.
molon labe
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TDPerk
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by TDPerk »

palladin9479 wrote:Wow .. just wow.

No collective entity should be anonymous in their donations, none at all. Citizens united needs to be removed, while at the same time restriction unions and other group contributors. The entire reason for open disclosure of campaign donations and political group memberships is so that influences can be traced, you then at least know who's buying your politicians. A corporate government is even scarier then a progressive one. Progressives are idiots and can't tie their own shoes without screwing it up. Corporations on the other hand tend to be significantly more efficient. Giving them free reign and they'll just find the more efficient way to turn people into slaves to enlarge the net profits of their relatively few shareholders.
Anonymity in political discourse is abjectly vital to protecting speakers from reprisal. It cannot be dispensed with, and as I have noted, it does not change either the content or the worth of what is said. Also as previously said, Silence Dogood and Publius rebuke you.

As for your moronic comments about the greater threat of corporate as opposed to progressive government, one wants to make money, and the other wants to make me the the New Soviet Man-or kill me if I refuse. Corporate government does not exist, and cannot because corporations don't really exist. "Progressive" government increasingly exists in the US today, and curiously seems to be what I think you really mean by "corporate government" which you claim to fear and which your command of English it seems does not permit you to fully express. They don't call him President Goldman Sachs for nothing, and this is not at this time improvable except by his opposition abjectly defeating Obama's party in 2014.

Which may well happen considering the grotesque depths of lawlessness he seems willing to tolerate in his governance.
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TDPerk
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by TDPerk »

The general principle that the mice should not be permitted to guard the cheese, argues fulsomely that if spreading the wealth is to be done by the national government, that a 3rd house of the legislature elected solely from among the net taxpayers should determine the distribution. The people being equally subject to other laws, all adults other wise in good standing should elect Representatives to the end of exercising all other legislative powers not reserved to the Senate, and of course the selection of Senators should be done by State legislatures, and Senate seats unfilled for more than 30 days or so should be filled by the appointee of the executive of the disadvantaged state for the remainder of that term--'though frankly I think Senatorial terms should be indeterminate and they be replaceable at the pleasure of the legislature of the appointing state at any time.

That's an amendment I could get behind.

And I do have to give props to persons recognizing that destroying the 1st amendment would require an amendment, as opposed to mere Congressional law.

I don't see the effort to destroy the first amendment gathering any steam though. It sputters as the idea deserves on it's merits.
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TDPerk
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by TDPerk »

@necoras

The free market arises from uncoerced action between any two intelligences. What is called in intellectual shorthand the "free market" cannot fail to exist otherwise, and strictly speaking, it cannot fail. Either or both of the two or more intelligences, may, however, and the more and more varied the intelligences, the sooner such error will be corrected.

I suggest to you the books "Toolmaker Koan" by John McLoughlin and "Star Child" by James P. Hogan. They will help you repair your public errors here which are really so profound I do not have the energy to attempt the work myself in any detail.
molon labe
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TDPerk
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by TDPerk »

@necoras

In other words I think you are laughably wrong.

But in the unlikely event you are an artificial intelligence and are determined to attempt to dominate the resources of existence, despite history's lessons, then I could be wrong.
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TDPerk
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by TDPerk »

@Maui
and I should add it is it in fact not possible to drown out anyone else's speech anymore than it is possible for them to stop your ears.
If someone buys an ad in a newspaper, or for that matter, buys the newspaper--this compels you to read or believe what they say?
they buy an ad on TV, you forget where your off switch is?
the evil stupidity of your, stubby, and Roger's idea cannot be too strongly condemned.
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ladajo
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by ladajo »

I think it is important to note that Free Market wil always exist. As will value in a Human's activities. Unless there is only one person left in the species, some form of trade and value sharing is going to occur. Even in the animal world there is Free Market. Always will be.

I must also say that free speech is not just a right, it is inherant to existance. If you think, you will have an opinion. That opinion is going to manifest in some way shape or form no matter what. Thinking it can be suppressed is the stupidity of many a failed 'ruling elite'.

The temporary loss of voting rights for those accepting government subsistance aide, I think is a fair trade. I also think that permanent loss of voting rights for criminals is also a proven point. If they are proven corrupt or broken enough to ignore the system, then it only follows that they not be allowed to currupt it further by voting. Demonstrated lack of participation and cooperation.

I do not mean to paint those taking aide as criminals. They are not to be assumed so. Even if some could make a strong arguement that a significant number are. Not the point. The point is more about the stated "mouse guarding the cheese".

There is a simple social experiment where a plate of cookies (or brownies) is place on a table in front of a group of kids. They are told not to take any until later, when an adult will come and let them have some. They are also told they will get an additional surprise if they wait. As I recall, it is a fail every time. Human nature seeks an easy (some might say 'free') answer every time. It is about the concept of perceived saving of resources expended to gain. A survival instinct if you will. One that tends to run counter to group cooperative dynamics.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
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hanelyp
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by hanelyp »

TDPerk wrote:The free market arises from uncoerced action between any two intelligences.
:!: :!: :!: :D :D :D :!: :!: :!:
The ethical foundation point of the Free Market, which those on the left fail to understand.
Maui wrote:allowing a very small minority of people --primarily those with interests much different thatn the average American-- to drive the political conversation.
Absent corporate free speech, a certain group known as the major media dominates and drives the political conservation. They were a major beneficiary of McCain-Feingold.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

necoras
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by necoras »

There is a simple social experiment where a plate of cookies (or brownies) is place on a table in front of a group of kids. They are told not to take any until later, when an adult will come and let them have some. They are also told they will get an additional surprise if they wait. As I recall, it is a fail every time. Human nature seeks an easy (some might say 'free') answer every time. It is about the concept of perceived saving of resources expended to gain. A survival instinct if you will. One that tends to run counter to group cooperative dynamics.
You recall incorrectly. You're also recalling the experiment incorrectly.

The children are shown a plate with a single cookie (marshmallow in the original experiment actually). They are told that if they can wait 5 minutes, they will be given two marshmallows. The adult leaves.

Many children are able to resist temptation for 5 minutes. Many are not. Some of it depends on age, but that's largely a function of brain development. The brain of a child of 3 (I'm pulling numbers out of the air here) is physically unable to delay gratification while a child of 5 can do so.

These results are interesting in their own right, but what's more interesting is when you go back and look at those children 20 years later. Those who were able to delay gratification do better in life across the board. Better grades, higher paying jobs, less incarceration time, etc. The real knowledge gained from the experiment shows that the ability to delay gratification early translates to better a better decision making ability throughout life.



Several people don't like my assertion that the value of human labor will go to 0 over time. Fine. Assume instead that the value of human labor will become infinitely small, converging asymptotically towards 0. It amounts to the same thing in the end. My point remains valid that eventually there will be no task that any of us, or any human, can perform that will be equal in value to the task of generating our own food, shelter, clean water, energy, medicine, etc. It will cost exponentially more to pay you to do anything than it will a machine for comparable work. You can call me a luddite, or neo-luddite, or whatever other ad hominem you think sticks, but it doesn't make my argument incorrect.

Moore's law is marching steadily onward. Eventually prices for labor, services, and goods as we know them today will fall asymptotically to the point where they aren't useful anymore in the historical sense. Assuming that's true, and I'm not a raving lunatic, what happens when .00000001% of the human race legally owns 99.99999999% of the capital and they have no reason to employ any human worker? How does the economy function at that point? I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing (in fact I believe it will eventually be the best thing ever to happen to humanity), but sticking our fingers in our ears and going "lalalalalalalalalalala, poor people are stupid and it's all their fault" isn't productive.

MSimon
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by MSimon »

Maui wrote:
MSimon wrote:Maui,

You assume that people don't think for themselves and can't judge a viewpoint based it its merits. If so we have a much bigger problem than corps spending money anonymously on messages.
You're naive enough to think that everyone does their homework on the viewpoints? If $ didn't influence the races, ppl wouldn't be spending it.
Well no. But your point is that we are mainly controlled and some one has to control the controllers. As long as I get the job and it doesn't take too much of my time I'm all for it. But if you were to control who can say what I might not like about that. Probably a lot.

In any case if the world works according to your model.... How can you be sure you are having an "original" thought? Maybe you have been programmed. I on the other hand am immune to such enticements, diversions, and out right falsehoods. Lucky for me, eh?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

TDPerk
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by TDPerk »

necoras wrote:
Several people don't like my assertion that the value of human labor will go to 0 over time. Fine. Assume instead that the value of human labor will become infinitely small, converging asymptotically towards 0. It amounts to the same thing in the end. My point remains valid that eventually there will be no task that any of us, or any human, can perform that will be equal in value to the task of generating our own food, shelter, clean water, energy, medicine, etc. It will cost exponentially more to pay you to do anything than it will a machine for comparable work. You can call me a luddite, or neo-luddite, or whatever other ad hominem you think sticks, but it doesn't make my argument incorrect.

Moore's law is marching steadily onward. Eventually prices for labor, services, and goods as we know them today will fall asymptotically to the point where they aren't useful anymore in the historical sense. Assuming that's true, and I'm not a raving lunatic, what happens when .00000001% of the human race legally owns 99.99999999% of the capital and they have no reason to employ any human worker? How does the economy function at that point? I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing (in fact I believe it will eventually be the best thing ever to happen to humanity), but sticking our fingers in our ears and going "lalalalalalalalalalala, poor people are stupid and it's all their fault" isn't productive.
Strictly speaking, the value cannot go to 0, although I suppose you are really insisting it will become uselessly small.

Far more likely we will evolve into a minimum life support stipend (unlimited video games!) for the relatively less able workers who will be commonly unemployed, while some of us enjoy 1 hour work weeks.

Why will Moore's law only have an effect on the pay side? Why will the cost of providing food, shelter, clean water, energy, medicine, etc. not go down for the same reasons and at roughly the same rate? You are supposing it they will not, can you justify that assumption? I know how to grow all the food for my own family (6 mouths) even in Virginia's sometimes chilly climate in just half an acre and for about $1,000 cash input--although we'd at least occasionally hunt deer or trade for beef in that circumstance, rabbits and fish would get old. I don't do that know, but I could.

I can conceive of a comfortable place to live with excellent fire wind resistance that would cost about $8,000 and may $4,000 for site prep, it is a matter of zoning laws and conventions of style that prevent it.
" what happens when .00000001% of the human race legally owns 99.99999999% of the capital and they have no reason to employ any human worker"
Why on earth do you think that's what will happen? Capital accumulation now is largely a function of bribing some lawyer (in the Shakespearean sense of the word) to slip a clause into some thousands page omnibus bill that lets you make money off the churn of monetized debt.

What can't go on forever won't, why do you believe anything else?
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Stubby
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by Stubby »

TDPerk wrote:@necoras

The free market arises from uncoerced action between any two intelligences. What is called in intellectual shorthand the "free market" cannot fail to exist otherwise, and strictly speaking, it cannot fail. Either or both of the two or more intelligences, may, however, and the more and more varied the intelligences, the sooner such error will be corrected.

I suggest to you the books "Toolmaker Koan" by John McLoughlin and "Star Child" by James P. Hogan. They will help you repair your public errors here which are really so profound I do not have the energy to attempt the work myself in any detail.
So you get your mindset from science fiction authors? I prefer mine to be based in reality.

Hogan's views regarding the Holocaust and other things are interesting so I won't bother finding out if his book has any merit.
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

paperburn1
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Re: Constitutional Amendment proposal gathering steam

Post by paperburn1 »

On the other hand here is a web site that shows what was once SCI FI is now reality in practice. http://www.technovelgy.com/
its a good way to pass some time.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

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