Speaking of Fascism...

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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby MSimon » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:29 pm

Diogenes wrote:
MSimon wrote:
I find that the right is nearly as communist - just about different things.


Yes, you find the idea that government should control access to dangerous substances to be the exact same thing as enslaving or murdering millions of people and stealing their property.

You demean the victimization of millions by comparing what they experiences with your pet (and petty) crusade to make the world safe for toking.

Your accusation is nonsensical in the extreme.


But in fact the government can't control access to them. In fact criminals control access to them.

BTW Bill Quick and more than a few others agree with me. And worse for you we seem to be convincing the nation.

and then we have the little problem of denying medicine to the sick.

http://classicalvalues.com/2013/03/endocannabinoids-the-science/

You will be amused - the editor of the Magazine I first submitted that to said I was accusing his audience of being Drug Nazis.

All I said was:

Medical Marijuana prohibition is a crime against humanity and a violation of the religious precept – heal the sick.

So what he was saying is that the members of his audience are Drug Nazis.

I was amused.

And what you are saying is that you are a fascist. After all before the Progressives made the drugs illegal they were available over the counter. So is that what "conservatives" do? Preserve the work of Progressives? It would seem so. So how can you scream you are no Progressive? Ah. I get it. You are only preserving their work. So it doesn't count. Clever.

The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected. Even when the revolutionist might himself repent of his revolution, the traditionalist is already defending it as part of his tradition. Thus we have two great types -- the advanced person who rushes us into ruin, and the retrospective person who admires the ruins. He admires them especially by moonlight, not to say moonshine. Each new blunder of the progressive or prig becomes instantly a legend of immemorial antiquity for the snob. This is called the balance, or mutual check, in our Constitution. — G.K. Chesterton


Every time you scream about the issue another youth is converted to my position. Keep screaming.

BTW there are actually citizens of our country who do not want the Federales taking over local police forces in any measure for any reason. They consider it a violation of the Constitution. It is good to see your lack of such scruples on show. I suppose you also favor UN interference in our internal affairs. Good.

http://classicalvalues.com/2013/03/the-un-turns-the-right-to-favoring-an-end-to-prohibition/

That would make you an exception. Excellent!

So the Conservative position according to you is to support the UN and the Federalization of local police. Wonderful.

Sounds awfully Progressive to me. How did you wind up in the Progressive camp? Something you just denied?
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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby Diogenes » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:03 pm

Simon, your responses are most often not to be taken seriously.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby MSimon » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:31 am

Diogenes wrote:Simon, your responses are most often not to be taken seriously.


Quite so. And yet my "side" is winning the public relations wars. About 70% to 80% of Americans favor Med-Pot. Around 50% favor outright legalization. And we have not yet peaked.

In Colorado and Washington legalization got more votes than Obama. 55%.

And my little phrase:

Medical Marijuana prohibition is a crime against humanity and a violation of the religious precept - heal the sick.

was repeated back to me the other day this way: "a crime against humanity" was used to describe the anti-Med Pot Faction. My intent is to turn you all into Nazis in the public mind. And there is nothing you can do about it because denying medicine to the sick is a crime against humanity.

And the very best part? I have science on my side - which further CONFIRMs in the public mind that the Right is anti-science.

This is a battle you cannot win and even fighting it will further tarnish your reputation.

And thanks for your hint about Code Pink - I used it (different link) at:

http://www.ecnmag.com/blogs/2013/03/bug-drone-wars

Also your general suggestion about drones.

The Sane Right and the insane left can work together to defeat the insane right. The same will be done for Prohibition. My advice (not that you will take it): stop trying to hold ground where the ground no longer supports you and put your effort into important things like defeating the gun control movement. Every loss you identify yourself with weakens your argument in places you need to hold.

The Right in America is going libertarian (the youth). If you got with the program you could greatly strengthen your position on things that matter. The inability of the core of the right to come to terms with the fact that the Country has gone libertarian on social issues weakens you on the things that matter - fiscal issues, gun control. And that is a shame.

And not only does it weaken you. It divides the right. How clever of you.

BTW what is the libertarian position on social issues? It is none of the governments business. The Progressive Right has the same disease as the Progressive Left - Government should... - well no it shouldn't. It is all unConstitutional.

Let me just repeat what my good friend Bill Quick (a writer for Star Trek - once upon a time and also a SF book author) has said about the base of the right (the emph is mine):

These phony “wars” not only never end, they set us up for new ones: The War on Some Drugs leads to the War on Some Terror, which leads to the War on Some Guns. The Framers would have considered none of these wars as being legitimated exercises of enumerated powers and, hence, unconstitutional.

Modern “conservatives” are statists to the bone, though, and so consider any exercise of government power legitimate, as long as they agree with the goals those exercises seek to achieve.

[url]From: http://www.dailypundit.com/?p=69174[/url]


My efforts are to defeat the unConstitutional Right. Once they have crumbled I will use the New Right to defeat the Left. Every two years the Old Right loses 3.5 million to death. Time is on my side. Ten years max. And maybe four if I'm lucky.

I am very happy as an old man. Like Dr. B my wishes are being granted even though I may not live to see the results. Christianity was always strongest as a moral force when it was in a minority position. I intend to return it to that position. Christianity needs to return to a dependence on the power of God and forget trying to accomplish its goals with the power of the State.
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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby MSimon » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:43 am

BTW you could do better in your PR if you could think like the left at a deep level. That ability escapes you and so you actually work against yourself.

The essence of good propaganda is to agree with your target audience (deeply) about everything except the one thing you are trying to get across. You are incapable of that. Which makes you self defeating. Frontal attacks in any realm are energy drains. You MUST use the indirect approach to be effective. Read B.H.L. Hart's "Strategy" where he discusses political matters. He really is the Alinsky of the Right. And the Right has ignored that aspect of his work. Fortunately for the Right I haven't.
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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby MSimon » Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:46 am

D,

You will like this:
Conservatives Not Receptive to Being Called “Drug Nazis” – Even If They Are

And, as M. Simon points out, the “conservative site” just outed itself.
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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby Diogenes » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:20 pm

MSimon wrote:D,

You will like this:
Conservatives Not Receptive to Being Called “Drug Nazis” – Even If They Are

And, as M. Simon points out, the “conservative site” just outed itself.



Simon, i'm not going to wear your label. Again, you trivialize mass murder.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby MSimon » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:58 pm

Diogenes wrote:
MSimon wrote:D,

You will like this:
Conservatives Not Receptive to Being Called “Drug Nazis” – Even If They Are

And, as M. Simon points out, the “conservative site” just outed itself.


Simon, i'm not going to wear your label. Again, you trivialize mass murder.


Wait a minute. There is a doctor who thinks that marijuana could save la lot of stroke victims. About 170,000 stroke victims die every year out of a little less than 500,000 stroke victims a year. Say they can only save 1/4 of those who die. About 40,000 a year. This has been known for 10 years. You going to tell me that 400,000 people in ten years from stroke alone is not mass murder?

http://classicalvalues.com/2013/03/a-heart-surgeon-discusses-medical-marijuana/

Now you add in all the other diseases where it extends life or cures (list here at the bottom of this post: http://classicalvalues.com/2013/03/endocannabinoids-the-science/) and you are easily up to a half million a year. Five million in ten years. We up to mass murder yet? Suppose it is only a million in ten years. Mass murder?

As long as you support med pot prohibition you support mass murder.

You think I can't make that stick? Easily? You are dreaming. We have cancer cures and cures or amelioration of a whole host of diseases. Here is just one where the mother was ready to give up her child to death.

http://youtu.be/BH5yzEu3JGQ

In many cases the only medicine that works. And certainly cheaper than the stuff big pharma sells. And that can be a lifesaver too. Now does it work in all cases for the various conditions? No medicine can do that. Let's not get carried away.

Dude - you are seriously outgunned because you have not studied the matter in depth. I have. Really. If you are going to defend yourself you should know the subject better than I do.

Marijuana cures cancer – US government has known since 1974

In the mean time - when are you planning to give up your support for mass murder? When are you going to quit denying medicine to the sick?
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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby MSimon » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:09 am

D,

I wrote this one just for you. I have the correct numbers in it as well. (I wasn't far off).

http://classicalvalues.com/2013/03/drug-nazis/

It will probably take 6 months to a year before the term becomes a household word. Who in 2014 will want to be running as a prohibitionist? Or should I say Drug Nazi? Well there will be some. There are always some.

If you weren't so reflexively oppositional I might never have come up with the idea. Thanks!
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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby Diogenes » Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:44 pm

MSimon wrote:D,

I wrote this one just for you. I have the correct numbers in it as well. (I wasn't far off).

http://classicalvalues.com/2013/03/drug-nazis/

It will probably take 6 months to a year before the term becomes a household word. Who in 2014 will want to be running as a prohibitionist? Or should I say Drug Nazi? Well there will be some. There are always some.

If you weren't so reflexively oppositional I might never have come up with the idea. Thanks!



Simon, I don't care what you do. From my perspective you are just rearranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic. Your crusade is just another symptom of a crumbling social structure.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby MSimon » Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:49 pm

Diogenes wrote:
MSimon wrote:D,

I wrote this one just for you. I have the correct numbers in it as well. (I wasn't far off).

http://classicalvalues.com/2013/03/drug-nazis/

It will probably take 6 months to a year before the term becomes a household word. Who in 2014 will want to be running as a prohibitionist? Or should I say Drug Nazi? Well there will be some. There are always some.

If you weren't so reflexively oppositional I might never have come up with the idea. Thanks!


Simon, I don't care what you do. From my perspective you are just rearranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic. Your crusade is just another symptom of a crumbling social structure.


Au contraire - if we could get more work on endocannabinoids done and get the Feds out of the way we could considerably reduce the cost of healthcare. Plus reduce the prison industrial complex. And a whole host of other dead weight costs. I estimate about 2% of the Federal budget directly from the Drug War. About $50 bn to $100 bn a year. Not a whole lot. Nothing to sneeze at either.

And besides the Feds have usurped a job that is a State prerogative. It would reinvigorate States Rights.

And tell me. If it is so insignificant why do you insist on it when you might gain allies if you gave it up? Oh. I forgot. You practice smart politics. Fewer allies mean fewer votes. That is how you win elections.
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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby Diogenes » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:35 pm

MSimon wrote:
Diogenes wrote:
MSimon wrote:D,

I wrote this one just for you. I have the correct numbers in it as well. (I wasn't far off).

http://classicalvalues.com/2013/03/drug-nazis/

It will probably take 6 months to a year before the term becomes a household word. Who in 2014 will want to be running as a prohibitionist? Or should I say Drug Nazi? Well there will be some. There are always some.

If you weren't so reflexively oppositional I might never have come up with the idea. Thanks!


Simon, I don't care what you do. From my perspective you are just rearranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic. Your crusade is just another symptom of a crumbling social structure.


Au contraire - if we could get more work on endocannabinoids done and get the Feds out of the way we could considerably reduce the cost of healthcare. Plus reduce the prison industrial complex. And a whole host of other dead weight costs. I estimate about 2% of the Federal budget directly from the Drug War. About $50 bn to $100 bn a year. Not a whole lot. Nothing to sneeze at either.

And besides the Feds have usurped a job that is a State prerogative. It would reinvigorate States Rights.

And tell me. If it is so insignificant why do you insist on it when you might gain allies if you gave it up? Oh. I forgot. You practice smart politics. Fewer allies mean fewer votes. That is how you win elections.



It doesn't really matter what I say because you will simply misstate it and call it my opinion.

But just for kicks, i'll explain again. I am not in favor of changing a bad policy to a worse policy. The Legalization of drugs will wreck any society which attempts it. It is like adding a turd to the stew. No quantity of turd is beneficial.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby choff » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:34 am

Interesting article I was just reading, according to an ECB report, the average Italian is twice as well off as the average German financially. Too bad for the average German that their government has to bail out the Italians.


http://www.testosteronepit.com/home/2013/3/8/a-politically-explosive-secret-italians-are-over-twice-as-we.html
CHoff

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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby MSimon » Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:19 am

The Legalization of drugs will wreck any society which attempts it. It is like adding a turd to the stew. No quantity of turd is beneficial.


It has wrecked Switzerland? Hadn't noticed. The people of Portugal seem satisfied with decrim - there is no appreciable movement to re-institute the bans. And use of the formerly banned drugs? Down.

Your view does not seem to match reality. A fact that is now affecting the Right politically. The core of the Right is losing 3.5 million supporters every two years to death. By 2016 that will mean 7 million. And the replacements on the right and left? Socially liberal. Yours is a voice screaming in the wind.

Between the ages of 15 an 25 people are open to evidence. I can provide it - you have only screaming. And I have been reaching that cohort for about 10 years. Google "medical marijuana" and see what comes up. Try "medical cannabis". Try "endocannabinoid". On top of that pot use peaks in the 15 to 25 cohort. About 50% of that cohort have used cannabis. So every one of the users and probably their friends has had to fear the government. Human nature is to weaken that which they fear. And our youth fear government more than they fear drugs. Prohibition is providing its own antidote.

Now I take your point that use/medical use leads to outright legalization. Familiarity again. And then given what has gone on - the war on youth - there will eventually be calls to legalize all drugs. The way to have headed that off would have been to legalize cannabis. There is a fair amount of prejudice among the cannabis users against hard drugs. But that is dying out - the heavy hand of the state is unpopular - the war on youth again. By trying to hold on to everything you will be losing everything. But again - I look at Switzerland and heroin - the cohort using that drug is aging and there are few new recruits. And Portugal - drug use of all kinds is down. So I do not fear what you fear. Probably because I have studied situations more recent than 17th and 18th century China. And I also know that in the US opiate use has not budged since before prohibition.

My advice? Jettison your fears.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.


Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.

====

What you fail to recognize is that you have been trained. "Reefer Madness", "The Man With The Golden Arm", etc. and that training has stuck. My good fortune/misfortune is that I was never trainable. And that makes me unlike most humans. I do get your discomfort. Your training is now in conflict with reality. And reality is about to pass you by.

====

I was just reading something that may explain my situation:

How does the endocannabinoid system change during adolescence?

We have looked at how the endocannabinoid system develops in the brain across the human lifespan from newborns to adults. We have found that some of the most dramatic change happens in adolescence. We see that the brain’s capacity to make CB1 receptors is declining, compared with very early life when this capacity is very high. On the other hand, one of the enzymes that helps to make the endocannabinoid messengers is higher at adolescence than it is in toddlerhood or adulthood, suggesting that there is still a great need for these messengers to help with communication in the brain.

Can using cannabis during adolescence disrupt these changes?

During adolescence, the brain is trying to ‘settle’ itself, to achieve the right balance in communication between neurons. This is crucial for the transition from adolescent to adult behaviour. For example, the risky behaviour common in teenagers is less prominent by the time a person is in their mid-twenties. Since the endocannabinoid system is a part of the process by which the brain balances its communication, and since it seems to be working very hard to sculpt these connections during adolescence, exposure to cannabis at this time could have a higher impact than in adulthood, when the brain's connections are more stable.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20121015/Cannabis-and-the-endocannabinoid-system-an-interview-with-Dr-Leonora-Long.aspx


Evidently my brain never got settled. That may have had something to do with abuse I suffered at the hands of my father. I used to hate what happened then. Now I'm rather thankful for it. I never grew up. Very handy when adapting to changing circumstances. And circumstances are changing faster than ever.

BTW the Dr then goes on to discuss schizophrenia. Despite the surge in cannabis use in youth, rates of schizophrenia haven't budged. Note the comments at the end of the piece which echo my statement. Also note that the commenters seem more technically adept than the Dr. This does not bode well for continuing prohibition.
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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby MSimon » Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:13 am

choff wrote:Interesting article I was just reading, according to an ECB report, the average Italian is twice as well off as the average German financially. Too bad for the average German that their government has to bail out the Italians.
http://www.testosteronepit.com/home/2013/3/8/a-politically-explosive-secret-italians-are-over-twice-as-we.html


It should be: Testosterone Pit - where the truth comes home to root.

We are fooked. It is also looking like government ownership of the housing stock (the US is now attaining that condition) is not good for wealth accumulation.
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Re: Speaking of Fascism...

Postby Diogenes » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:51 pm

MSimon wrote:
The Legalization of drugs will wreck any society which attempts it. It is like adding a turd to the stew. No quantity of turd is beneficial.


It has wrecked Switzerland? Hadn't noticed. The people of Portugal seem satisfied with decrim - there is no appreciable movement to re-institute the bans. And use of the formerly banned drugs? Down.




I should bother to argue with you? Why? I have given you examples which contradict your narrative, if you will not even acknowledge those, to what purpose more?


Sorry, but I just don't feel motivated to attempt reason with you.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —


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