Barry Goldwater And The Preachers

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:29 am

Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they’re sure trying to do so, it’s going to be a terrible darn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can’t and won’t compromise. I know, I’ve tried to deal with them. - Barry Goldwater

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It is now worse than that. The Preachers can no longer muster enough votes to win Presidential Elections. And that will be increasingly true as the country becomes more libertarian and less religious.

Colorado used to be a fairly reliable Republican State in Presidential elections. No more. Why? Well the Western States hold a fairly libertarian view of politics. The Republican Party no longer represents that view in any significant measure.

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I do believe that a party that stuck to strictly financial matters could win Presidential elections. A party that could say "this is not a job for the Federal Government". Or better "this is not a job for government - period".

But no - we have a party that lost Senate seats and the Presidency in a year that based on the landscape should have been a winner for them. Because if you do not follow that Party's religion they don't want your vote. And have no qualms about voicing that at the top of their lungs.

The Democrats may be evil - but they are not stupid.

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I had a Republican on another thread tell me that the fiscal health of the country was the most important question in 2012. And yet this same Republican told me that if I was not a social conservative I couldn't be a fiscal conservative. And he is not the only one. I have heard that often in many venues, and many times from many different people.

My guess is that the electorate took that message to heart. Or at least enough of them to loose an election.

My friend was not willing to compromise. Well neither am I. And it appears I am not alone.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:41 am

One of my favorite commenters at my blog said this:

Oh, and please tell that clueless Republican that there are lots of us out here, and (despite my nose holding in the last election) the rest of those like me, but who refuse to hold their noses, probably cost the GOP the election.

Another comment by the commenter on a different thread:

@Simon ” data mining helps identify the marginal voter and the policies that will attract him/her.”

That only helps if you are willing to adopt the policies that will attract him/her. GOP seems determined to reject said policies.

Their choice, their bed, let them lie in it.

rj40 · Post by **rj40** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:33 pm

This reminds me of something I was told years ago by a fairly conservative religious person. When talking about evolution, you can ask a creationist this question - If you were finally convinced that evolution is real and creationism is wrong, could you still be a Christian (or Muslim, or...etc.).

There could be many answers, but two of them might be something along the lines of:
1. Yes. I would be surprised, but I could adjust and I would still believe, basically, the same stuff but with this modification.

2. No way. If the holy book is wrong on that, why not other things? Why not everything? If you convince me of evolution, I will no longer be a member of my church or that group. I do not desire this.

I think there could be a whole range of answers in between and on either side of those answers too.

I know many very conservative people, most all of them Christian owing to where I live. Their beliefs are, for the most part, very integrated and form what appears to me, an integrated whole. If what you say is true, getting many people to change their minds to what you think would be better would be like getting them to change their religion. The younger the easier.

Do you contribute (time, money) to any youth programs in this regard, or do you primarily focus on changing the ideas and wolrd views of older folks. Or, is it a bit of both?

Edited: Thanks everyone!

rj40 · Post by **rj40** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:40 pm

Whoops! I would like to replace the above term "logical whole" with "integrated whole."

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:50 pm

So edit it to do so.

rj40 · Post by **rj40** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:52 pm

I don't know how and I didn't think it could be done. Sorry.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:58 pm

Well my thinking is: why couldn't an all powerful being create a universe that evolves?

I always chided the Creationists with this jibe:

My God is more powerful than yours. He created a universe so perfect that he hasn't had to adjust it a bit since He created it.

Drives 'em nuts.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:59 pm

rj40 wrote:I don't know how and I didn't think it could be done. Sorry.

See the edit button on the right? Try it.

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:03 pm

rj40 wrote:I don't know how and I didn't think it could be done. Sorry.

Look at your post, the one you want to edit. In the top right corner there is a button labeled EDIT. Push it.

Stubby · Post by **Stubby** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:10 pm

Among Christians, evolution is only antithetical to Young Earth Creationists.
In order for the bible the be literally true, much of science has to be ignored.
It isn't just evolution but geology, cosmology and biology among others.

Old Earth Creationists tend to accept most of what science says but do a lot of fancy footwork to reconcile genesis and the flood accounts with tested scientific theories.

Old Earth Creation website wrote:Although young earth creationism is the primary creation theology in the U.S., it suffers from numerous scriptural and scientific problems.

This quote really blows me away.

Stubby · Post by **Stubby** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:10 pm

KitemanSA wrote:
rj40 wrote:I don't know how and I didn't think it could be done. Sorry.
Look at your post, the one you want to edit. In the top right corner there is a button labeled EDIT. Push it.

Hope he has a touchscreen!

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:14 pm

Many a socon has also told me:

"You may not like our policies but they are not as harsh as those of the left. Besides where are you going to go? "

Home.

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Stubby wrote: In order for the bible the be literally true, much of science has to be ignored.

In order for the Christian Bible to be true, all you have to do is ignore the Jewish parts. After all, they do!

rj40 · Post by **rj40** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:05 pm

1. Thanks everyone. I can now edit. Weeee...

2. I think my point on this was that getting someone to change their opionion when that opinion is tied very closely to their personal beliefs, via religion for example, could be even more difficult than one might expect.

In Louisiana folks keep working to get creationism into the public schools and have it taught as an alternative to evolution. It seems to me, that if you want the rest of society to believe things that are similar to what you believe, you go after the young people.

So MSIMON, to get back to my original question, do you work with young people or kids to get your agenda across to them? I'll bet that doing something like that would be very effective. What would Goldwater do (WWGD)?

Diogenes · Post by **Diogenes** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:19 pm

rj40 wrote:This reminds me of something I was told years ago by a fairly conservative religious person. When talking about evolution, you can ask a creationist this question - If you were finally convinced that evolution is real and creationism is wrong, could you still be a Christian (or Muslim, or...etc.).

There could be many answers, but two of them might be something along the lines of:
1. Yes. I would be surprised, but I could adjust and I would still believe, basically, the same stuff but with this modification.

2. No way. If the holy book is wrong on that, why not other things? Why not everything? If you convince me of evolution, I will no longer be a member of my church or that group. I do not desire this.

I think there could be a whole range of answers in between and on either side of those answers too.

I know many very conservative people, most all of them Christian owing to where I live. Their beliefs are, for the most part, very integrated and form what appears to me, an integrated whole. If what you say is true, getting many people to change their minds to what you think would be better would be like getting them to change their religion. The younger the easier.

Do you contribute (time, money) to any youth programs in this regard, or do you primarily focus on changing the ideas and wolrd views of older folks. Or, is it a bit of both?

Edited: Thanks everyone!

Let me give you the benefit of my wisdom. Christianity and Judaism owe their existence to made up stories. The stories are NOT TRUE. They were created by clever folk, to explain to simple uneducated people, a history which would induce them to believe and support the moral principles outlined in the History.

The principles were designed to improve the survivability characteristics of communities which adhered to them. It is the following of those principles to which we owe our current civilization. People will police themselves if they believe "God" is watching them. Convince them that there is no such thing and they will then look to their natural instinct for guidance. What that instinct will tell them is that they should do primarily what is in their own best interest.

To sum it up.

1. Yes, it's bullsh*t.
2. You better hope that bullsh*t is believed and that it continues.