Infrastructure Reforms

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Skipjack
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Infrastructure Reforms

Post by Skipjack »

Having witnessed some of the issues with the ageing infrastructure in the US first hand and seeing how many power outages a little bit of wind has caused even in landlocked Pennsylvania, I have to say that Obama had a very valid point when he proposed an infrastructure reform.

palladin9479
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Re: Infrastructure Reforms

Post by palladin9479 »

Skipjack wrote:Having witnessed some of the issues with the ageing infrastructure in the US first hand and seeing how many power outages a little bit of wind has caused even in landlocked Pennsylvania, I have to say that Obama had a very valid point when he proposed an infrastructure reform.
I agree. Of all things to spend on, local infrastructure is a must. It's an investment into future economic activity that comes with a better / more stable infrastructure.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Contracts for cronies. It is infamous in Illinois.

Look up the Peotone Airport. Add in corruption.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Well, it cant stay the way it is now either. In Austria it is done by cronies, no question about it, but we havent had a power out that lasted more than 12 hours in my lifetime and one of my friends who lives just a few miles away from DC had a power out that lasted months a couple of years or so ago.

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

Months? I find that hard to believe.

In any event, I can assure you that it was not "a little bit of wind".
I am on the seacoast in the North East, and have been without power since noon yesterday. I do not expect it back until tomorrow. Maybe tonight at best, but there are a large number of big trees down, not to mention branches and stuff.

I am glad you live in a safe area where trees do not get blown over, and you do not face flooding during severe weather.

Infrastruture is one thing, talking stupid is another.

Take a look at some of the photos from NYC and NJ and then tell me again that it was just a little wind.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Months? I find that hard to believe.
Well it is the truth though. It was quite a scandal and the governor took some serious beating about how he handled things with the power company. He should have been much tougher on them.
In Austria we do have storms with 100 km/h winds about once a year. Very often forrests get devastated and sometimes roofs get blown off some of the newer and less well built houses. In the city where I live, roof tiles get blown off at times (and that is quite dangerous). But I have not lost power for more than an hour since I was little kid.
This storm caused people to loose power very far in land, like central Pennsylvania. Winds there were not THAT dramatic, yet people have been without power for a night now. I live in Michigan and in the suburb where I live ( one of the richest in the US), the power lines are hanging from some wooden poles like wild lianas with the cable TV cables mixed in on top of that. With something like that, I am not surprised that people end up without power whenever a bit of wind causes branches to fall of trees.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Months? I find that hard to believe.
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2012/10/0 ... ty-system/

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

The July derecho knocked out power for weeks, as did the 2010 “snowmageddon.”
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Yepp, that is what I was referring to. IIRC, my friend was without power for something close to 3 months...

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

Moving all the lines underground has been a consideration for all the eastern seaboard states for decades. The cost is going to be passed onto the customer and it will not be 1-2 dollars/month. It will be substantially more. Doing it now doesn't make much sense though. We're on the threshold of 3rd generation HTSC tape/transmission line. Once we have commercial HTSC line that can be produced for a reasonable price, then replacing the current above ground infrastructure will make sense. It will however never be a national issue. This is properly a state/utility issue.

FYI, the bridges in this country need replacing too. The thing is, the federal government built them with the expressed understanding that their maintenance and replacement costs belong to the states, not the federal government. When OBama starts trying to push infrastructure spending, including high speed rail, he is violating the structure of our government with the purpose of growing the national government and ending federalism. This is a socialist attack on our system, as is the notion of a federal police force, and hiring 100,000 teachers, both of which he has been floating since before his election.

BTW, I am at ground zero. I live just outside Atlantic City NJ and the eye of the storm passed overhead between 5-8 PM last night. I was without power for 18 hours. I can live with that.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

Skipjack wrote:Yepp, that is what I was referring to. IIRC, my friend was without power for something close to 3 months...
Eve if that's true, it is a wild exception to the rule. Generally people don't go without power for more than 2-3 days after such an emergency. It's not a terrible system we have. And don't compare 60 mph winds in Austria with 90 mph winds. That's apples and oranges. Hurricanes are not simply wind storms such as you get with a large thunderhead.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

Moving all the lines underground has been a consideration for all the eastern seaboard states for decades. The cost is going to be passed onto the customer and it will not be 1-2 dollars/month. It will be substantially more. Doing it now doesn't make much sense though. We're on the threshold of 3rd generation HTSC tape/transmission line. Once we have commercial HTSC line that can be produced for a reasonable price, then replacing the current above ground infrastructure will make sense. It will however never be a national issue. This is properly a state/utility issue
You would not use HTSCs for the last mile. You would use those for the major powerlines. Those are above ground in Austria as well (though they almost never fail).
FYI, the bridges in this country need replacing too. The thing is, the federal government built them with the expressed understanding that their maintenance and replacement costs belong to the states, not the federal government.
I know that they do. The problem is that the states failed to fullfill their duty to repair them and local governments failed to pressure the companies tasked with this to do their jobs. Just like the governor of Maryland failed to go after the power companies there for them not doing their jobs. It is only pragmatic to to conclude that the way things are done have to change. A failing infrastructure is a national security risk.
Eve if that's true, it is a wild exception to the rule. Generally people don't go without power for more than 2-3 days after such an emergency. It's not a terrible system we have. And don't compare 60 mph winds in Austria with 90 mph winds. That's apples and oranges. Hurricanes are not simply wind storms such as you get with a large thunderhead.
It is NOT an exception. One of my coworkers works out of the DC area and he was without power for a week before and the article mentioned this happening before in Maryland as well.
The winds in cnetral PA were not 90 miles per hour, yesterday and power is still out in large parts of the country.

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

It is the exception. You can look up the numbers online of you like, but people very seldom go without power for more than a couple days. I've been through more than half a dozen direct hits from hurricanes and the power almost always goes out, but never for more than a day or two. When millions of people lose power, it takes longer to have it restored. The cost of avoiding this is however, extremely high and with the economy as it is right now, there's no money in people's pockets to fix it.

If you're that worried, buy a generator.
Last edited by GIThruster on Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

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