Are UFO's Advanced Science craft?

[GIThruster]

. . .if this is the case, then our presence or current state of evolution/technology is not a factor in their reason for evaluating our planet and there exists an extreme coincidence that their several hundred years of evaluation is coincident with our ability to observe it in any meaningful way. There exist many hundreds of millions of years when the exact same evaluation for the exact same purpose could have occurred.

Not at all. Many protozoa occur for only relatively brief periods of time. Tests done centuries ago would not say all that much about what lethal viruses are on the planet today.

[paperburn1]

sincerely, I don't like the idea of ets meddling in human affairs, much less impeaching our expansion when we discover space drives and such.

I hope most of the galaxy is empty...

I remember reading a syfi book along those lines which I though was called "Red is a Rover" in where the aliens were controlling humanity to develop them for the upcoming galactic war because they needed every right-handed helix DNA to fight against extermination by the Z left-handed helix. Scared the hell out of me. Mainly because it seemed to make sense at the time as it explained are explosion of technological development. Thank god it was just a book...he he ...Hmmmm.

[seedload]

. . .if this is the case, then our presence or current state of evolution/technology is not a factor in their reason for evaluating our planet and there exists an extreme coincidence that their several hundred years of evaluation is coincident with our ability to observe it in any meaningful way. There exist many hundreds of millions of years when the exact same evaluation for the exact same purpose could have occurred.

Not at all. Many protozoa occur for only relatively brief periods of time. Tests done centuries ago would not say all that much about what lethal viruses are on the planet today.

OK, but I obviously didn't communicate my point very well. I will try again.

Your theory did not center around the aliens investigating humans. Rather, it was that they are looking at Earth's biology to determine if it was safe, presumably for occupation.

My point, simply stated, was this:

If the aliens are not looking at us then it is a huge coincidence that they are here at a time when we can look at them.

[GIThruster]

If the aliens are not looking at us then it is a huge coincidence that they are here at a time when we can look at them.

I can't help but notice all this discussion of late in this folder has been primarily jumping from one unwarranted conclusion to another. I've been trying not to contribute but honestly, pretending to figure out the motives of a covert operative is pretty specious behavior.

There's no reason to posit any sort of coincidence. For all we know, ET's have been taking all sorts of samples from Earth since before our race was born. For all we know, ET was responsible for the stunning breakthrough in human physiology 45,000 years ago. For all we know it was ET who enhanced our primate ancestors and created what we became before we could walk. For all we know, ET redirected the asteroid that eliminated the dinosaurs because they found them too violent for their tastes and wanted to start the planet over.

What precisely is the point in this sort of guesswork and isn't this exactly the kind of thing that people object to when they dismiss various UFO related positions as nonsense?

[seedload]

If the aliens are not looking at us then it is a huge coincidence that they are here at a time when we can look at them.

I can't help but notice all this discussion of late in this folder has been primarily jumping from one unwarranted conclusion to another. I've been trying not to contribute but honestly, pretending to figure out the motives of a covert operative is pretty specious behavior.

There's no reason to posit any sort of coincidence. For all we know, ET's have been taking all sorts of samples from Earth since before our race was born.

You suggested the "to see if they're safe" from our planets biology motive, not me. Safe for what? Safe to hang out forever continually checking if they are safe?

Sorry, you added the following after I responded:

For all we know, ET was responsible for the stunning breakthrough in human physiology 45,000 years ago. For all we know it was ET who enhanced our primate ancestors and created what we became before we could walk. For all we know, ET redirected the asteroid that eliminated the dinosaurs because they found them too violent for their tastes and wanted to start the planet over.

What precisely is the point in this sort of guesswork and isn't this exactly the kind of thing that people object to when they dismiss various UFO related positions as nonsense?

The point is that we are intelligent beings capable of deductive reasoning and we tend to want to deduce things. In this case, motive seems like a reasonable thing to want to deduce. If, as you are so sure of, there are aliens visiting our planet, I would even argue that motive would be the MOST important thing that we better try to figure out.

[GIThruster]

If, as you are so sure of, there are aliens visiting our planet, I would even argue that motive would be the MOST important thing that we better try to figure out.

Pardon me to note this sounds pretty delusional since there is literally NOTHING to go on. To deduce you need to have relevant information and we have none. Hence the jumping to conclusions I've noted.

This is verbal masterbation. There are all sorts of theories and no facts. If you want to pluck an answer out of the air, you open the door for the crazy stories of lizard men who live under the Earth or the Thetans popularized in Scientology. Or you could go with a time honored, traditional myth. Christian eschatology says that these beings are divided and at war with each other, and that at the end of this age, we'll be swept up in that war. It says we are being "preserved by the Holy Spirit" until the end of the age when that restraining influence will be removed and we get all the lovely apocalyptic imagery of most of humanity dying. (BTW, if we're admitting wormholes and time travel, there's no reason ancient prophecies shouldn't be a source of real information about the future.) One could go on and on about this, matching these ancient prophecies to these other events. One could just as easily choose a vedic apocalyptic eschatology, or the Norse version.

But then you wouldn't be doing all the same verbal masterbation, making up stories of your own. You'd be stuck with someone else's stories which I'm sure you'd quickly dismiss out of hand and without examination, just as you do the evidence.

[CaptainBeowulf]

GIThruster,

We were trying to postulate self-consistent, logical reasons why aliens would be showing up here, and why they would behave the way they do assuming that UFO sightings have been reported accurately and that the UFOs are indeed aliens.

However, it is a series of jumps to speculate that ME drives will work, that in turn they will facilitate the creation of negative energy densities, that in turn those negative energy densities can be used to create Alcubierre drives, and that in turn Alcubierre drives are used by aliens to allow them to make frequent visits here and display the behavior noted in UFO reports.

So yeah, now you're talking complete sense: we have nothing to go on and it's all speculation. We can wait and see what Woodward et al at UCal on the one hand, and Paul March, Sonny et al at Eagleworks on the other, come up with. If they both get best case scenarios, with strong thrust signatures showing that the M-E concept is generally correct (however exactly the underlying physics are working), essentially independently replicating each others' work... then the UFOs are alien spaceships hypothesis becomes a bit less bizarre/a bit more likely. But even then, it would still be unproven.

And, I guess, we were also taking the opportunity to make a bit of fun at the expense of poor GoatGuy. If my contribution to that came across as a bit too rude, I apologize.

[seedload]

If, as you are so sure of, there are aliens visiting our planet, I would even argue that motive would be the MOST important thing that we better try to figure out.

Pardon me to note this sounds pretty delusional since there is literally NOTHING to go on. To deduce you need to have relevant information and we have none. Hence the jumping to conclusions I've noted.

This is verbal masterbation. There are all sorts of theories and no facts. If you want to pluck an answer out of the air, you open the door for the crazy stories of lizard men who live under the Earth or the Thetans popularized in Scientology. Or you could go with a time honored, traditional myth. Christian eschatology says that these beings are divided and at war with each other, and that at the end of this age, we'll be swept up in that war. It says we are being "preserved by the Holy Spirit" until the end of the age when that restraining influence will be removed and we get all the lovely apocalyptic imagery of most of humanity dying. (BTW, if we're admitting wormholes and time travel, there's no reason ancient prophecies shouldn't be a source of real information about the future.) One could go on and on about this, matching these ancient prophecies to these other events. One could just as easily choose a vedic apocalyptic eschatology, or the Norse version.

But then you wouldn't be doing all the same verbal masterbation, making up stories of your own. You'd be stuck with someone else's stories which I'm sure you'd quickly dismiss out of hand and without examination, just as you do the evidence.

Got it. Their motives are so beyond our ability to comprehend that they might as well be Gods to us.

Me, I am going to continue to be stubborn, claim that their reported actions are weird, and maintain that the reports don't line up with any reasonable motive for visitation. If someone tells me that they are playing chicken with aircraft because they are Norse Gods, you are right, I will probably dismiss them out of hand.

[paperburn1]

I thought that was the point, this is all just Typically "sh$% talk" among a group of men consists of toipcs such as sex, politics, hobbies, humor or random daily events. Sh$% talk has no boundries or limits and its main focus is entertainment and a laugh. nothing serious

[GIThruster]

Perhaps that's why the difference in attitude. I personally think the issue of whether we have spacecraft in our skies should be divorced entirely from what the perceived consequences to this ought to be. I can recommend people not get hysterical but beyond this, I don't see the point.

There certainly was a growing hysteria back in the 50's as the "saucer craze" affected most Americans. Just after WWII and during what was arguably the height of the cold war, the notion that our skies would be so easily violated and there was nothing we could do about it caused a great deal of panic, which is one of the best reasons to accept that USG is involved in a cover up.

At this point, no one seems to be panicking despite most Americans believe UFO's are visiting spacecraft. So guessing about supposed motives under the guise of logical deduction does not seem to me warranted. There is literally nothing we can do about these craft, so why pretend there is some onus on us to figure out motives and what we should do?

[CaptainBeowulf]

Well, the primary reason is part of being human: curiosity. If we entertain the possibility, no matter how remote, that other beings are visiting us, it's part of our nature to ask why. If you want to put effort into arguing that we are being visited, are you not interested in the slightest bit why?

MSimon seems to be a fiscal conservative, whatever his views on drugs, but nonetheless he sometimes quotes Mr. Big Government FDR: there is nothing to fear but fear itself.

IF some small fraction of UFO reports from each decade are real, and IF they are alien spaceships, then, at least since the 1940s they've been dropping by. Whether you want to extend it back before then varies on how you want to interpret pre-20th century accounts of things people saw in the sky. Maybe some accord with a UFO alien spaceships explanation, but you also quickly wander into Von Daniken territory.

Having interstellar travel means they're at least a half-step ahead of us technologically. Militarily, at a minimum it means that it's like a WWI force vs. a Napoleonic Wars force, or a WWII force vs. a WWI force, or a 1990s force vs. a WWII force - in other words, a rollover. As others have pointed out above, it seems unlikely that we and aliens would happen to evolve in such close synchronicity that we'd be within decades or centuries of each other technologically, versus thousands, millions or billions of years (unless there are really very many species, and we just got found by one really close to us in development). But whatever likelihood, it's at least that half-step.

So, they've had several decades to roll over us, and they haven't. Maybe they're just waiting until they've taken enough samples that they're sure that no microbes on this planet can give them incurable plague. However, I tend to think that it means that if they exist, they aren't bent on our destruction.

And, as you said, if they do decide to destroy us at this point, there's not really anything we could've done differently anyway. So, no point in being afraid.

So, might as well speculate on why aliens, if they exist, might be here. And if Woodward and Paul March have great success and twenty years from now we're chasing flying saucers around our solar system with our own flying saucers, might as well try to figure out why they're here. That's the human thing to do.

[CaptainBeowulf]

Sorry, I might have been thinking of MSimon quoting Yoda about fear there. Though, he might have quoted FDR sometime as well. All the same general point about fear being pointless...