Are UFO's Advanced Science craft?

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CaptainBeowulf
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:35 am

Post by CaptainBeowulf »

If the are FTL travelers, then there might be some reason for them to come here (ie, they can't intercept our communications and beam them faster than light but they can travel faster than light). Even so, I can't imagine why they would need to land anywhere. Come to the solar system, listen to our communications, leave. Easy cheesy. Landing in a field in Arkansas seems a little unnecessary for your speculated purpose.
Not sure that I really buy them landing either - in my subjective experience, most of the difficult to explain sightings are aerial, by pilots and radar which have tracked *something* for a while.

I can see some logic to occasional landings in secluded areas where they don't think anyone will notice: collection of local biological material. They may want grass clippings, bits of tree bark or leaves, needles, some insects and small animals etc. They can disassemble such things, establish what kinds of proteins life on this planet uses. Sequence the DNA and see if all the species here are related to each other, and if they have any genetic resemblance to species elsewhere (ie. was there any "seeding"). See what kind of metabolic processes they use, and if they could live on other planets. Find out what kind of microbes are common on the planet, and whether they pose the risk of a terrible plague to you, or if you can relatively easily design antibiotics/antibodies that neutralize them. Even if they're primarily interested in us as a civilization, you can learn a lot about a species by studying its environment. The environment it evolved in may predispose it to aggression or passivity, or various other things.

Making crop circles in fields seems an odd way to go about this, plus I think various methods to create hoax crop circles have been demonstrated, so I don't really think crop circles are examples of this. However, when you have reasonably credible witnesses who claim to have stumbled onto something sitting on a secluded road or path at night which had bright lights and then shot up into the air... well, IF it was an alien probe or ship, the above is what it MIGHT have been doing.

seedload
Posts: 1062
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Post by seedload »

GIThruster wrote:
seedload wrote: There is no number of photos like those you reference that would be sufficient. Most of those photos make me feel like someone yelled "pull" a second before the shot was taken.
This is one of the reasons why you can't expect anyone to do your research for you. They spend the time and your response is a 20 second post. You couldn't possibly have looked at those 300 photos so your comments about them are obviously examples of ignorance. Worse is, for you to comment on what "most" of them look like when you did not look at most of them, is completely dishonest.

You see why we cannot have an intelligent dialog about the evidence? You're not interested in evidence. Why confuse you with the facts when your mind is made up?

You complained that there is no photographic evidence when in fact there are more than 10,000 photos available. I pointed you to the best 300 and your answer without looking at them is they're no good. There's no room for intelligent discussion in the face if this sort of thing.
There were two hours between our posts. TWO HOURS. In that two hours I looked at most of those photos. Do you know that the website you linked to has a BEST photos category? I probably shouldn't have spent any time beyond going through the couple of dozen best photos. Here is one they consider among the best:

http://www.ufoevidence.org/photographs/ ... oto420.htm

Come on.

Anyway, I spent some time browsing through the photos, again because I have interest. I actually read some of the associated stories. I didn't see anything that was convincing. I reviewed your post, noted your question about what would be convincing, and took the time to think about what would be convincing to me. I found some merit in your question, because you are right that there is probably very little that a single photo could do to convince me - especially in this age of easy home CGI. So, I came up with a scenario that would be pretty convincing and I took the time to write it out exactly. I even described why I didn't think my scenario should be improbable in our modern world.

I was directly responding to YOUR question.

What do you do? You ignore and edit out the bulk of my response, focus on a triviality, and say it is impossible to have an intelligent conversation with me. To me, it doesn't sound like there is a conversation going on at all - intelligent or otherwise.

What would be more convincing is multiple photos or preferably video independently taken by multiple unconnected observers from different angles/locations of the same object. Basically a Dome of the Rock UFO videos, only not faked and in daylight. Pictures of an unexplained light(s) don't count.

Everyone has cameras with them all day long these days. Lots of those supposed pictures from your referenced website were taken over highly populated areas in the daylight. If the UFOs are that active as to be seen over populated areas in the day, then it is hard to imagine multiple people NOT taking a shot of it.

My guess is that it would probably be more likely to get multiple independent videos of the same UFO today then it was to get a single picture of one back in the 50's simply based on the distribution of cameras - assuming there are really flying saucers that is.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

seedload
Posts: 1062
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Post by seedload »

CaptainBeowulf wrote:
If the are FTL travelers, then there might be some reason for them to come here (ie, they can't intercept our communications and beam them faster than light but they can travel faster than light). Even so, I can't imagine why they would need to land anywhere. Come to the solar system, listen to our communications, leave. Easy cheesy. Landing in a field in Arkansas seems a little unnecessary for your speculated purpose.
Not sure that I really buy them landing either - in my subjective experience, most of the difficult to explain sightings are aerial, by pilots and radar which have tracked *something* for a while.

I can see some logic to occasional landings in secluded areas where they don't think anyone will notice: collection of local biological material. They may want grass clippings, bits of tree bark or leaves, needles, some insects and small animals etc. They can disassemble such things, establish what kinds of proteins life on this planet uses. Sequence the DNA and see if all the species here are related to each other, and if they have any genetic resemblance to species elsewhere (ie. was there any "seeding"). See what kind of metabolic processes they use, and if they could live on other planets. Find out what kind of microbes are common on the planet, and whether they pose the risk of a terrible plague to you, or if you can relatively easily design antibiotics/antibodies that neutralize them. Even if they're primarily interested in us as a civilization, you can learn a lot about a species by studying its environment. The environment it evolved in may predispose it to aggression or passivity, or various other things.

Making crop circles in fields seems an odd way to go about this, plus I think various methods to create hoax crop circles have been demonstrated, so I don't really think crop circles are examples of this. However, when you have reasonably credible witnesses who claim to have stumbled onto something sitting on a secluded road or path at night which had bright lights and then shot up into the air... well, IF it was an alien probe or ship, the above is what it MIGHT have been doing.
Your changing your scenario. You were saying that they were visiting to see how close we were to finding out the secret to interstellar travel. I was responding to that. If that is their desire, then our communications are all they need.

But, agreed, if they want biological samples, then they got to get down and dirty and we have a better chance of seeing them.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

AcesHigh
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:59 am

Post by AcesHigh »

CaptainBeowulf wrote: 1. It might not particularly want a new player on the scene. So, it won't want to contact a primitive species directly and hand them technology that lets them make a space-drive, or even just prove to them that such a thing is possible, therefore making them research it intensively. The aliens may hope that the primitives will take a very long time to figure out a space-drive.
well, I hope they do not discover this forum (very unlikely, considering their tech. They probably have very good AIs searching human communications 24h to monitor our tech progress).

if they discover that a quite warmongering civilization like us is on the verge of discovering a space drive, they would need to destroy us.

or maybe they are using their AIs to discredit ME Effect. Hmmmm... GoatGuy :shock: :shock:

ps: I am talking about AIs here... the existance of organic aliens itself is something to be argued about, many singularity theorists believe all civs tend to create AIs and these AIs will end up replacing them and even becomeing super AIs

Skipjack
Posts: 6110
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

seedload wrote: 1) Problem of motive.
2) Inconsistency of description. Where did all the saucers go?
3) Inconsistency of behavior. Normally hiding, but inexplicably sometimes openly tailing aircraft for example.
4) Lack of good photographic evidence in a new world of instant photography.
5) Inconsistency of radar. Sometimes appear on radar, sometimes don't. If they do, then the world is covered by radar so why not seen more.
6) etc.
Agreed on all accounts.

Skipjack
Posts: 6110
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

But, agreed, if they want biological samples, then they got to get down and dirty and we have a better chance of seeing them.
I think that a species advanced enough to have mastered interstellar travel (or even FTL warp drives, if GiThruster is to be believed) would probably be able to simply clone a human or any animal from a few cells in a lab. Acquiring those will definitely not require interactions with many humans and absolutely not butt probes ;)

The site linked to the pictures opened a virus ad, btw ("congratulations you won" a website that cant be closed due to a blocking panel and if you click on me you get a virus).

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

This one is clearly a fake. I can even remember reading a skeptical analysis of the picture once, I think it was by the Bad Astronomer Phil Plait, but I might be wrong.

CaptainBeowulf
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:35 am

Post by CaptainBeowulf »

No, acquiring biological samples wouldn't require interactions with any more than one person, maybe five to ten if you want some variety. I've never suggested that any alien abduction accounts are credible or unexplainable. I haven't seen any which I find to be overwhelmingly compelling.

However, to build up a complete picture of a planet's ecosystem you might well land in lots of different secluded places in order to get samples of the various local flora and fauna. This would be consistent with people accidentally stumbling onto relatively small UFOs on or near the ground which zoom away quickly. Being able to endlessly clone a few animals or plants from one place doesn't really give you a complete picture of what the ecosystem of the planet is like.

Once again, a possible logical reason for observed behavior IF the UFOs in such accounts existed and IF they are actually alien spacecraft, instead of something else. Currently unprovable/unfalsifiable without more data.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

No, acquiring biological samples wouldn't require interactions with any more than one person, maybe five to ten if you want some variety.
Simply stealing a hairbrush might already be enough, or getting some cells from a used cup, or something like that. I am sure they would be able to find a way to get the DNA samples without the need for ANY direct human contact at all.

CaptainBeowulf
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:35 am

Post by CaptainBeowulf »

Yeah, actually I suspect you could find a few shed skin cells almost anywhere people have gone. Doorknobs, benches, sometimes you might even drop a skin cell on the ground as you walk along a trail. Perhaps thrown-away coffee cups on a trail or road, or a trash can along a trail, or perhaps there's some follicle cells left on the end of shed hair.

At this point, though, I think we need to examine in more detail the theory that GoatGuy is an alien trying to stop us from developing M-E drive. Who's to say he's an AI? Maybe GoatGuy is a literal description of his appearance. He might be a sort of Centaur, you know, four legs with hoofs, an elongated chest with arms and hands coming out of it, and a big skull/braincase on his back, a bit like a Puppeteer. Unlike a puppeteer, he might have a smaller secondary brain in a head on a neck atop his chest that looks surprisingly like that of a terrestrial goat... right down to a couple of small, semi-useless horns. The secondary brain does all the immediate sensory input processing while the main brain processes deep thoughts.

Due to the fact that Americans have become so skeptical about aliens, GG can actually live with impunity in the U.S., because people think he's just a guy in a costume. Anyone who actually does realize he's an alien doesn't bother to say anything about it, since no one will believe them, and they're afraid of ridicule.

Opinions?

GIThruster
Posts: 4686
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

. . .acquiring biological samples wouldn't require interactions with any more than one person
Sorry but nothing could be farther from the truth. Our planet is filled with countless protozoa and for a foreign species to know they're safe they'd need to take thousands of blood and tissue samples and perform tests over dozens or hundreds of years.

Best explanation for cattle mutilation I know of.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

DeltaV
Posts: 2245
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:05 am

Post by DeltaV »

seedload wrote:There were two hours between our posts. TWO HOURS. In that two hours I looked at most of those photos. Do you know that the website you linked to has a BEST photos category? I probably shouldn't have spent any time beyond going through the couple of dozen best photos. Here is one they consider among the best:

http://www.ufoevidence.org/photographs/ ... oto420.htm

Come on.
That looks similar to a Sikorsky Cypher. Time frame is also about right for an advanced hobbyist to build and fly his own.

Don't get me wrong. I believe there are alien species. It would be a total waste of trillions of galaxies, star systems and planets if there weren't. But I've also heard of the Postage Stamp Analogy (Wow, talk about a suppressed search engine topic!... I heard Carl Sagan discuss it in his 'Cosmos' TV series in the 1970s or 80s). I think the correct view is that humanity is still in the "cradle", on probation so to speak, and any other species that care are advanced far beyond us, with no need for clumsy, aerial-laser cow tissue removal, human abductions, erratic sky maneuvers and light shows, etc.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

I think the correct view is that humanity is still in the "cradle", on probation so to speak, and any other species that care are advanced far beyond us, with no need for clumsy, aerial-laser cow tissue removal, human abductions, erratic sky maneuvers and light shows, etc.
Absolutely

AcesHigh
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:59 am

Post by AcesHigh »

sincerely, I dont like the idea of ets meddling in human affairs, much less impeaching our expansion when we discover space drives and such.

I hope most of the galaxy is empty...

seedload
Posts: 1062
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Post by seedload »

GIThruster wrote:
. . .acquiring biological samples wouldn't require interactions with any more than one person
Sorry but nothing could be farther from the truth. Our planet is filled with countless protozoa and for a foreign species to know they're safe they'd need to take thousands of blood and tissue samples and perform tests over dozens or hundreds of years.

Best explanation for cattle mutilation I know of.
If I understand your speculation correctly, the explanation for alien visitors might be that they are doing a detailed biological evaluation of our planet to determine whether it is safe for occupation. You are estimating this evaluation to require on the order of hundreds of years. I can accept that as a theory.

However, if this is the case, then our presence or current state of evolution/technology is not a factor in their reason for evaluating our planet and there exists an extreme coincidence that their several hundred years of evaluation is coincident with our ability to observe it in any meaningful way. There exist many hundreds of millions of years when the exact same evaluation for the exact same purpose could have occurred.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

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