Liberty Is Prone To Misuse

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MSimon
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Liberty Is Prone To Misuse

Post by MSimon »

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You would prefer a police state?
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Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

ScottL
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Post by ScottL »

God no, but the larger the community, the more you need a large policing force. This leads to abuses of power and authority and then a break down of the system. Instead, the system should be made up of smaller communities with their own policing power and those communities make up a whole.

randomencounter
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Post by randomencounter »

No need to shout.

It's as unbecoming when you do it as it is when Diogenes does it.

I think all threads on this topic could stand to be locked, it's a waste of energy and a needless source of friction and it isn't what this forum is supposed to be dedicated to.

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

randomencounter wrote:No need to shout.

It's as unbecoming when you do it as it is when Diogenes does it.

I think all threads on this topic could stand to be locked, it's a waste of energy and a needless source of friction and it isn't what this forum is supposed to be dedicated to.

Dude, you are talking to the moderator. You know, the guy to whom you would appeal to "lock" the thread. :)
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

randomencounter
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Post by randomencounter »

Diogenes wrote:
randomencounter wrote:No need to shout.

It's as unbecoming when you do it as it is when Diogenes does it.

I think all threads on this topic could stand to be locked, it's a waste of energy and a needless source of friction and it isn't what this forum is supposed to be dedicated to.

Dude, you are talking to the moderator. You know, the guy to whom you would appeal to "lock" the thread. :)
The irony in that had not escaped me.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

randomencounter wrote:No need to shout.

It's as unbecoming when you do it as it is when Diogenes does it.

I think all threads on this topic could stand to be locked, it's a waste of energy and a needless source of friction and it isn't what this forum is supposed to be dedicated to.
The owner of this site doesn't like that. He likes a free speech zone. But if you have a complaint take it up with Joe. I will follow his wishes.

You might want to know though that in the 5 years this site has been in operation only one guy has ever been banned and he had to try

REAL HARD
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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Let me add that my "moderation" is purely a janitorial function.

If anyone gets real bad I report it to Joe who generally doesn't like to be bothered.

My function is to correct URLs that bleed over the standard page width or pictures that do the same.

With bandwidth so cheap I don't even bother complaining about "hot linking" any more. Although I personally prefer not to do it.

Otherwise Joe says I'm to leave other's posts strictly alone. I don't even insert comments in them - although I can.

I have moved topics but that doesn't come up often.

As I said. My function is janitorial. Although at the beginning when we got a LOT of porn spam I did delete that without waiting for Joe.

So just consider me a regular commenter except if you have mechanical problems like "can't log in" etc.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Let me add that the last time I checked Joe was considerably to the left of me. But he loves free speech. He knows where I stand and doesn't give a flying F.

I got the job because I'm semi retired and have time on my hands - although if I'm busy I might not show up for a month or three depending if I want to get in it with D or not.

Not much Polywell news lately and not too many newbies who want to be taught.

So I just mostly amuse myself in general. Or writing columns for ECN.

http://www.ecnmag.com/tags/Blogs/M-Simon/

Are we having fun yet?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

MSimon wrote:Let me add that the last time I checked Joe was considerably to the left of me. But he loves free speech. He knows where I stand and doesn't give a flying F.

I got the job because I'm semi retired and have time on my hands - although if I'm busy I might not show up for a month or three depending if I want to get in it with D or not.

Not much Polywell news lately and not too many newbies who want to be taught.

So I just mostly amuse myself in general. Or writing columns for ECN.

http://www.ecnmag.com/tags/Blogs/M-Simon/

Are we having fun yet?

I don't really want to get into it with you, but this is your favorite topic, and I just happen to disagree with your thinking on it. (And a few other issues.) Most of the time I simply regard myself as providing defensive retorts against your aggressive advocacy. I used to just ignore the topic, but it is the constant harping on it that gets on my nerves.


You are libertarian, and I am a conservative. I feel I have a good grasp on your perspective, and I think you comprehend my positions fairly well.

Beyond that, we share a lot of common ground, and I wish we could spend more time focusing on that. It wouldn't bother me a bit if we just ignored the whole topic, but i'm sure that wouldn't be satisfactory from your perspective. To you this effort is a manifestation of the true faith and you are an evangelist for it.

Preach on brother! I'll play the role of blaspheming heretic. :)
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Diogenes wrote:
MSimon wrote:Let me add that the last time I checked Joe was considerably to the left of me. But he loves free speech. He knows where I stand and doesn't give a flying F.

I got the job because I'm semi retired and have time on my hands - although if I'm busy I might not show up for a month or three depending if I want to get in it with D or not.

Not much Polywell news lately and not too many newbies who want to be taught.

So I just mostly amuse myself in general. Or writing columns for ECN.

http://www.ecnmag.com/tags/Blogs/M-Simon/

Are we having fun yet?

I don't really want to get into it with you, but this is your favorite topic, and I just happen to disagree with your thinking on it. (And a few other issues.) Most of the time I simply regard myself as providing defensive retorts against your aggressive advocacy. I used to just ignore the topic, but it is the constant harping on it that gets on my nerves.


You are libertarian, and I am a conservative. I feel I have a good grasp on your perspective, and I think you comprehend my positions fairly well.

Beyond that, we share a lot of common ground, and I wish we could spend more time focusing on that. It wouldn't bother me a bit if we just ignored the whole topic, but i'm sure that wouldn't be satisfactory from your perspective. To you this effort is a manifestation of the true faith and you are an evangelist for it.

Preach on brother! I'll play the role of blaspheming heretic. :)
It hurts me to see you being played. The DEA "fights" drugs and the CIA imports them and the drug money slush funds go to support Islamist and lefty politicians. Especially the NWO crowd who control the whole racket.

Junkies are easier to deal with than government gone bad.

And when you consider that 70% of the female heroin "addicts" were sexually molested in childhood I don't get why "Christians" are against their getting pain relief until they can be convinced to try something else. It seems so, so unChristian. Of course I know you are no Christian. But I am. In the sense that Jesus was Jewish and had a message for the Jews. Which I gladly receive. Relieve suffering - how ever you can.

I'm getting your point though and it was a libertarian who brought it home to me:

http://classicalvalues.com/2012/07/libe ... to-misuse/

Some people WANT to be slaves. I had failed to recognize how fundamental the story of Moses was. You (a follower of Burke) want to be a Master. I don't want anything to do with any of it.

It is unAmerican. As T D Perk pointed out. Because once you start down that road you will eventually get a bad master. I'd rather have the inefficiencies of liberty than from time to time have a bad master over me. And dude we are now in a situation that the bad master is near to assuming complete control. That could have been avoided had we listened to Samuel.

There is a song very popular in the Orthodox Jewish community - Duvid Melech Yisroel. David King Of Israel. Sung with much joy despite knowing that David had a good man killed to steal his wife. David freed the Jews from foreign slavery only to make the Jews his own slave. And this is praiseworthy? I don't think so.

Reminds me of the clamor for Romney. We are giving up slavery to the foreigner only to be made slaves of an American. I do believe Romney is at this point necessary. But I don't want to be his slave either.

And that is the danger of "conservatives" they too want Americans to be slaves. Just to different things than the socialists. I'd prefer the inconveniences of liberty. Which used to be an American value. In fact around 1900 it was the conservative position. Which is why I like to say we have a two party system. Democrats and Christian Democrats.

The Conservatives have conserved nothing. They are just, in the American context, Right Wing Progressives. The real conservatives are the libertarians.

I had a conservative Christian announce to me the other day that she had seen the light and had changed her position on government involvement with prohibition. Not drugs mind. Just prohibition. So I have converted (or assisted) in converting a "conservative" to Conservatism. Progress. You are next (or soon) my friend. Choose liberty. With all its faults it is the safer option.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

seedload
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Post by seedload »

MSimon wrote:Of course I know you are no Christian. But I am. In the sense that Jesus was Jewish and had a message for the Jews. Which I gladly receive. Relieve suffering - how ever you can.
That is an absurd interpretation of Jesus's message. Jesus' fundamental message is love thy neighbor as thyself.
MSimon wrote:Some people WANT to be slaves. I had failed to recognize how fundamental the story of Moses was.
Moses, who brought tablets down from the mountain that contained strict rules of conduct? That Moses? The Moses who carried the commandment from God that "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."?

You somehow understand Moses' fundamental story but you say things like this?
I used to read reports in the 60s of a state of oneness (considered in the past a religious state) provided by substances. All the churches said it was fake. But I wonder. IMO brain chemistry is brain chemistry how ever acquired. Whether vigils (Zen), fasting, or taking a pill.
It is absurd that you claim to understand Moses' fundamental story when you consider drugs the equal of Faith because they are both just chemical states of the brain. You don't even accept the first commandment.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

That is an absurd interpretation of Jesus's message. Jesus' fundamental message is love thy neighbor as thyself.
Yup. And that is in fact from the Jewish tradition which preceded Jesus. It was emblazoned on the front of my synagogue when I was growing up in 2 ft high gold anodized aluminum letters.

And the Jewish tradition is to relieve suffering. So let me bring it back to the Drug War. What religious group is out in front on the med pot issue? Jews.

From Reforms calling for med pot in 2004 to the Orthodox (Dr. Green) selling med pot in Berkeley, CA.

You would relieve your own suffering by any means necessary. You owe the same to your neighbor.

Well as I said. Jesus had a message for the Jews and it was a Jewish message. Funny that.
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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

It is absurd that you claim to understand Moses' fundamental story when you consider drugs the equal of Faith because they are both just chemical states of the brain. You don't even accept the first commandment.
Well that is odd. Because it is said that all seed bearing plants were given to us by the Maker for our benefit.

And the best tool the Devil has is not greed. It is hate. Look in a mirror lately? Or even better your heart? And what is the method of hate? Divide and conquer. I must say you play it well. My compliments to Old Nic. Interesting fellow. Both of us get great amusement out of humans. And the more you try to evade the Old One the more he ensnares you. I prefer to count him as a friend - a very distant friend. But I would never be his follower or his enemy. Both paths are fraught with danger. I prefer acquaintance. It is a caution.

And at the root of hate is fear.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

seedload
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Post by seedload »

MSimon wrote:
That is an absurd interpretation of Jesus's message. Jesus' fundamental message is love thy neighbor as thyself.
Yup. And that is in fact from the Jewish tradition which preceded Jesus. It was emblazoned on the front of my synagogue when I was growing up in 2 ft high gold anodized aluminum letters.

And the Jewish tradition is to relieve suffering. So let me bring it back to the Drug War. What religious group is out in front on the med pot issue? Jews.

From Reforms calling for med pot in 2004 to the Orthodox (Dr. Green) selling med pot in Berkeley, CA.

You would relieve your own suffering by any means necessary. You owe the same to your neighbor.

Well as I said. Jesus had a message for the Jews and it was a Jewish message. Funny that.
Yup?????

We do not agree that "love thy neighbor as thyself" is the same thing as "Relieve suffering - how ever you can". Actually, these phrases pretty much sum up the difference between loving intervention and loving but misguided enabling when dealing with addiction.

We also don't agree that Heroin is a cure for trauma any more than we would agree if you claimed that lobotomy were a cure for trauma. "Relieve suffering - how ever you can" after all.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

seedload wrote:
MSimon wrote:
That is an absurd interpretation of Jesus's message. Jesus' fundamental message is love thy neighbor as thyself.
Yup. And that is in fact from the Jewish tradition which preceded Jesus. It was emblazoned on the front of my synagogue when I was growing up in 2 ft high gold anodized aluminum letters.

And the Jewish tradition is to relieve suffering. So let me bring it back to the Drug War. What religious group is out in front on the med pot issue? Jews.

From Reforms calling for med pot in 2004 to the Orthodox (Dr. Green) selling med pot in Berkeley, CA.

You would relieve your own suffering by any means necessary. You owe the same to your neighbor.

Well as I said. Jesus had a message for the Jews and it was a Jewish message. Funny that.
Yup?????

We do not agree that "love thy neighbor as thyself" is the same thing as "Relieve suffering - how ever you can". Actually, these phrases pretty much sum up the difference between loving intervention and loving but misguided enabling when dealing with addiction.

We also don't agree that Heroin is a cure for trauma any more than we would agree if you claimed that lobotomy were a cure for trauma. "Relieve suffering - how ever you can" after all.
There is no such thing as addiction when it comes to drugs.

There is only chronically taking pain relievers for chronic pain.

What about the addiction of some to injected insulin.

i.e. is it really an addiction if you need it?

You might like this video:

http://classicalvalues.com/2011/11/the- ... -in-drugs/

read the comments first before you get your shorts in a knot.

BTW who taught you to hate people in chronic pain? The Church or Jesus? About 70% of female heroin users were sexually molested in childhood. You would deny them relief? How Christian.

And soldiers with PTSD?

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi ... na/251466/

Well they deserve to suffer too I guess.

I do like your attitude though. It is the best advertisement against itself I can think of.

Prohibition is failing. With its failure it will take down the Christians of America until America becomes another Europe. I don't want to see that but the current course makes it inevitable - thanks to you and your friends.

The very thing you fear is what you are making happen. Well the Devil works in mysterious ways. How does that fit into the Maker's mystery? TBD.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

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