Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

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JLawson
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby JLawson » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:32 pm

The thing that worries me severely about the Parkland shooting is that the law enforcement agencies in the area went out of their way to AVOID arresting this little pile of fecal material (and many others, apparently) citing a 'school to prison pipeline' that needed to be stopped. (And to keep that sweet, sweet fed money coming in...)

Well, 17 dead later that idea doesn't sound all that hot, to be honest.

What laws will work if they aren't enforced? What good is a law that isn't enforced - unless you're just trying to show you're 'doing something' regardless of the actual result?

Another issue that's concerning is how very quickly the media hopped on this, and how fast those kids were shoved in front of a camera with an approved storyline and the 'moral authority' to tell everyone what should be done. Busses were ready to haul teachers and kids for a photo op in the capital just a couple of days later. Call me suspicious, but that's not done by just a handful of teens - there was some serious coordination going on, like the anti-gun groups and activists were making the most of the opportunity when it arose.

And blaming immediately the NRA when there was no connection discernible between the NRA and this little shitstain? The NRA has been for gun safety and responsibility since it was formed. It makes no sense - unless you're trying very hard to quickly establish a solid and semipermanent villain you can blame everything on and masking the failures of the system that allowed the shooter to pass a background check when he should have been prohibited.
When opinion and reality conflict - guess which one is going to win in the long run.

paperburn1
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby paperburn1 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:29 pm

Last updated November 14, 2017.
North Carolina has no law for seizure of firearms without due process.
They can seize a weapon if a threat is happening(suicide) or a crime in progress or if the homeowner consents to temporary release of firearms.
but otherwise they need consent of a court.
Requiring the removal or surrender of firearms from the scene of a domestic violence incident; or
Prohibiting individuals convicted of domestic violence misdemeanors from purchasing or possessing firearms or ammunition, although:
Federal law applies;
A 2015 state law makes these individuals ineligible for a concealed handgun permit; and
A 2015 state law requires fingerprinting of some misdemeanants, and recording of the relationship between certain perpetrators and their victims, to assist in identification of these misdemeanants.
Firearm Prohibitions for Persons Subject to Domestic Violence Protective Orders, and Relinquishment of Firearms When Domestic Violence Protective Orders Are Issued

North Carolina law provides that a court that has found that an act of domestic violence has occurred the court may prohibit a party from purchasing a firearm for a time fixed in the order.3 Domestic violence is defined in N.C. Gen. Stat. § 50B-1(a).4
State law provides that upon issuance of an emergency or ex parte domestic violence protective order, the court must order the defendant to surrender to the sheriff all firearms, ammunition, permits to purchase firearms, and permits to carry concealed firearms that are in his or her care, custody, possession, ownership, or control if the court finds any of the following factors:
The use or threatened use of a deadly weapon by the defendant or a pattern of prior conduct involving the use or threatened use of violence with a firearm against persons;
Threats to seriously injure or kill the aggrieved party or minor child by the defendant;
Threats to commit suicide by the defendant; or
Serious injuries inflicted upon the aggrieved party or minor child by the defendant.6

The defendant may request the return of any firearms, ammunition, or permits surrendered by filing a motion with the court at the expiration of the protective order or final disposition of any pending criminal charges and not later than 90 days thereafter. Upon receipt of the motion, the court must schedule a hearing and provide written notice to the plaintiff and to the sheriff who has control of the firearms, ammunition, or permits.13
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

williatw
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby williatw » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:08 pm

paperburn1 wrote:North Carolina has no law for seizure of firearms without due process.
They can seize a weapon if a threat is happening(suicide) or a crime in progress or if the homeowner consents to temporary release of firearms.
but otherwise they need consent of a court.


The police were called to his home 30 something times in the last few years. That would be the "a threat is happening" that is the imminent threat you are alluding to and I was referring to. If you or I or anyone were ranting and raving in the middle of the street (or in our house/yard) the police were called by neighbors or home residents they would have the authority under the imminent threat to public safety to take your firearms (if you were armed). Not exactly sure whether they can go into your house; of course with 30 calls some of them must have involved the police going into his domicile. The key would be why he was (apparently) never charged/arrested and/or was he ever deemed armed/dangerous on any of the >30 plus police calls.
Last edited by williatw on Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

paperburn1
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby paperburn1 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:55 pm

Not familiar with florida laws but you would have thought at some point in this boy's history the guns would have been gone.
but I guess not.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

choff
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby choff » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:27 am

He called 911 on himself at least once, told 911 he was planning on shooting up his school, self described in social media as a professional school shooter. I agree, it doesn't matter if you have laws on the books and active shooter drills and gun restrictions if it all gets circumvented by some other policy. In this case there were financial incentives that prevented intervention. What politician or political party(parties) wants to admit their financial incentive program got 17 kids killed.
CHoff

paperburn1
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby paperburn1 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:04 pm

Warning, just downloaded the latest MS update for windows ten and I "lost" all my chrome bookmarks
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Diogenes
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby Diogenes » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:22 pm

paperburn1 wrote:you really seem invested so hard in this idea.


This is what we need before you can purchase a Gun, well thought out testing, training and requirements that suport the right of the majority to bear arms but keeps the minority that are incapable from having access to them.



No. This idea that you can stop people from getting their hands on guns is concentrated stupid.


We must accept as a fundamental premise that kooks and criminals will always get their hands on a gun, and we need to stop thinking about supply side attempts at a solution. Just give that idea up completely, and it will free up your mind to consider real practical solutions.


Gun safe in classroom. Teacher has combination.

Cheap. Realistic. Creates deterrence.

It is a better idea than any other of which I have yet heard.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

paperburn1
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby paperburn1 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:58 pm

Right now I am not worried about criminals just the kooks.
But I suspect as social responsibility keep decreasing this too will be a issue.
I still think we need before you can purchase a Gun, well thought out testing, training and requirements that support the right of the majority to bear arms. I work at a friends pawn shop on weekends (no, its nothing like pawn stars but yes its loads of fun) but the number of people that have no idea about their gun and the correct way to handle it would probably cause you to shake your head in disbelief.
Over the years
I have seen people not be able to clear their weapon.
Have had several cases where they swore it was clear and got mad at us when we made them clear it and even madder when a round popped out. that is why we put in the clear barrel in the first place.
We made them stop disassembling guns to see how clean they are because they could not put them back together.
and last but not least a booger hook in the bang switch.
Now there are many responsible gun owners that come into the shop I just want to cut down on the wannabe billy bad asses.

As for arming teachers there has to be a better way but as of yet I have not heard one solution proposed. I do not like the idea.
While crunching the numbers I found out unlike this last shooting the majority of school shooting are by weapons purchased by a parent or grandparent.
This bodes the question what measures did they take to prevent this and what happened to them legally.
Perhaps just arming the administrators, it would keep the gun out of the classroom,gives them a small modicum of protection while maintaining the illusion of a safe study environment.(students, if left to their own devices I am sure they would try and see the gun or perform some tomfoolery with it . think snap-chat Instagram)
I guess the bottom line on this issue is no matter how controversial this issue is something has to be done. I for one will keep looking for a better solution.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Diogenes
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby Diogenes » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:31 pm

paperburn1 wrote:

As for arming teachers there has to be a better way but as of yet I have not heard one solution proposed. I do not like the idea.




Why do you not like the idea? Israel has shown that the idea works very effectively. I favor an idea that actually works over one that makes people feel good, but doesn't actually work.






paperburn1 wrote:
(students, if left to their own devices I am sure they would try and see the gun or perform some tomfoolery with it . think snap-chat Instagram)



Of this I have no doubt. I am very much against the idea of a teacher keeping a gun on their person in school, because the chances of some mischief occurring are all too great. Keeping one locked up in a very secure safe of some sort (firmly attached to some structural members so that it cannot be moved) will allow the tool to be accessed when needed, but also to be secured when it is not.


I also want to hammer the deterrence effect of knowing that 1/4 of the teachers in a school will be able to shoot you dead if you come in there with a gun. I think this alone would prevent 9/10ths of prospective attackers from going forward with this plan.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

hanelyp
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby hanelyp » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:38 pm

Trying to disarm the common citizen is a Very Bad Idea.

- As Diogenes says, you can't prevent criminals from obtaining weapons. You can make it more difficult by prohibiting convicted criminals from having them, but criminals are well known for doing what the law forbids.

- Cops can't protect you in all cases. They can't be everywhere all the time.

- Sometimes cops won't protect you, as appears to be the case in this last school shooting. Sometimes the cops get orders from above not to intervene with a particular crime.

- Not common in the US, but sometimes the cops are the overt criminals.

Historically, regulating who may keep and bear arms marked the line between the "nobility" and the peasants. In America we're supposed to be beyond that kind of class separation.

As for what can be done, it's rare for a mass killer to not have warning signs in their history. It appears to me that most would-be mass killers encounter needed intervention in the legal system after committing lesser violent crimes. But every so often someone slips through the cracks, and the cops don't catch the budding criminal or ignore the warning signs.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

choff
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby choff » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:36 pm

Hypothetical situation, your a Jewish kid in a German high school 1933/34/35, you think the other students are bullying you, you think the teachers and staff hate you. So you bring a gun to school and shoot up the place, kill 20 fellow students. Are you a bad kid?, a crazy?
CHoff

paperburn1
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby paperburn1 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:18 am

In actuality there are no guns in classrooms in Israel. Teachers and armed guards are on field trips and professional security and military patrol the outside of schools when class is in session. Weapons are keep outside the class room by policy.
But they have a school system of maybe 2000 schools a number far more manageable than the 130000 we possess.
And if we were to follow Israel example of gun ownership, they do not allow gun ownership until you are 27 unless you have served in the military and then you can after your hitch is up only about 3/4 of the population serve the defense force.. Soldiers in Israel can carry on and off duty but rarely carry on weekends. Most former military do not carry after they have served.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

paperburn1
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby paperburn1 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:40 am

choff wrote:Hypothetical situation, your a Jewish kid in a German high school 1933/34/35, you think the other students are bullying you, you think the teachers and staff hate you. So you bring a gun to school and shoot up the place, kill 20 fellow students. Are you a bad kid?, a crazy?

The onset of Nazis started in February of 33 when the emergency proclamation came from parliament and rules against Jewish children at school were in full effect by April. by that time. Most people do not realize how fast Germany became a Nazi country. by December parents with means were already evacuating children to England and the US for fear of what was to come.

Answer? maybe or just a harbinger of things to come.
I know off topic but an area of my heritage I am interested in greatly. Our family came to the US after WW1 because they believed thing were going to get very bad in Germany. They did.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

choff
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby choff » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:02 pm

Something else to consider, for every school shooter, there are 20 kids who will turn the gun on themselves, suicide. Quite often they were bullied into killing themselves by other students, often, those students will joke about the 'loser' who offed himself/herself. People have been arrested for inducing others to commit suicide, it qualifies as murder.

Remember the difference between democracy and liberty, democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on dinner, liberty is the sheep having a gun disputing the vote. What if it's 1 sheep and 20 wolves in sheep's clothing.
CHoff

Diogenes
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Re: Crime and Punishment: Oklahoma (& Texas) style!

Postby Diogenes » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:39 pm

paperburn1 wrote:In actuality there are no guns in classrooms in Israel. Teachers and armed guards are on field trips and professional security and military patrol the outside of schools when class is in session. Weapons are keep outside the class room by policy.



The specifics of who carries what when and where are irrelevant to the salient point; that there is a deterrence effect from the knowledge that if you try to shoot up a school, you will be quickly shot.

Also, this looks like a teacher rather than a person who is specifically an armed guard. If they are an armed guard, they dress strangely in Israel.


Image



paperburn1 wrote:But they have a school system of maybe 2000 schools a number far more manageable than the 130000 we possess.
And if we were to follow Israel example of gun ownership, they do not allow gun ownership until you are 27 unless you have served in the military and then you can after your hitch is up only about 3/4 of the population serve the defense force.. Soldiers in Israel can carry on and off duty but rarely carry on weekends. Most former military do not carry after they have served.



Doesn't matter to the salient point. Israel demonstrates the effectiveness of deterrence in preventing school shootings. Their exact methodology of achieving people with guns available to shoot shooters does not rebut the fact that people with guns available to shoot school shooters prevents school shootings.


If we have gun safes in various classrooms, and the kooks understand that they will be shot at if they try to enter schools and shoot people, then most kooks will be deterred from trying it.


This seems like just common sense to me.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —


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