Elon Musk says he will put millions of people on Mars.

[williatw]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... ?full=true

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/12/elon-m ... ns-of.html
He does not say how he will pay for it...but low billions sound like private would work. sounds like "Bank of Mars is good to go". viewtopic.php?t=3383

[Diogenes]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... ?full=true

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/12/elon-m ... ns-of.html
He does not say how he will pay for it...but low billions sound like private would work. sounds like "Bank of Mars is good to go". viewtopic.php?t=3383

I am very much a supporter of the idea that humanity should make Mars habitable, but I have been dismayed by recent speculation that the lack of a powerful magnetic field surrounding Mars will allow life destroying radiation to hit the surface, thereby rendering it unfeasible to survive there.

Now I and some of my friends have speculated as to the possibility of creating an artificial magnetic field for Mars, but it is still an open question whether such an idea is feasible.

Also, the absence of a significant moon is another detriment for the planet. Likewise the recent discovery that the solar wind seems to be sweeping up great chunks of the Martian atmosphere and throwing it out into space. (As it is also doing to Earth.)

Mars needs more mass and quite likely more water. Perhaps we could steer some asteroids\comets\debris into it to create a bigger moon, and maybe raise the mass?

Mars is going to need a lot of terraforming to become a decent planet.

[williatw]

I am very much a supporter of the idea that humanity should make Mars habitable, but I have been dismayed by recent speculation that the lack of a powerful magnetic field surrounding Mars will allow life destroying radiation to hit the surface, thereby rendering it unfeasible to survive there.

Now I and some of my friends have speculated as to the possibility of creating an artificial magnetic field for Mars, but it is still an open question whether such an idea is feasible.

Also, the absence of a significant moon is another detriment for the planet. Likewise the recent discovery that the solar wind seems to be sweeping up great chunks of the Martian atmosphere and throwing it out into space. (As it is also doing to Earth.)

Mars needs more mass and quite likely more water. Perhaps we could steer some asteroids\comets\debris into it to create a bigger moon, and maybe raise the mass?

Mars is going to need a lot of terraforming to become a decent planet.

I would guess that initially the bigelow inflatable habitats would simply be buried, covered with martian regolith as protection against radiation. This would eventually evolve onto what would be known as the "old city" on mars, buried modules eventually supplemented by tunnels passageways etc using martian raw materials. Decades later if the bank of mars takes off population/wealth grows..could easily imagine a domed over crater on mars, maybe inner and outer dome filled with water as shielding, fully pressurized interior. First step global terraforming would probably be factories on mars generating super greenhouse gases: http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/200501 ... _sys.shtml Some of them have 9000X more effect than CO2 does. Warmup the planet to the point where the CO2 in the icecaps and permafrost start evaporating into the atmosphere greatly increasing the warming. You could have a warm wet liquid water at the surface environment on Mars in decades.

[KitemanSA]

then again, why would anyone in theoir right mind climb out af a deep well only to jump down another?

Once you are in space, colonize SPACE.

Can you say "O'Neill"?

[williatw]

then again, why would anyone in theoir right mind climb out af a deep well only to jump down another?

Once you are in space, colonize SPACE.

Can you say "O'Neill"?

Or do both....know one says they are mutually exclusive certaintly there is room/resources in the solar system for a colonied moon, mars, space colonies and more.

[Diogenes]

I am very much a supporter of the idea that humanity should make Mars habitable, but I have been dismayed by recent speculation that the lack of a powerful magnetic field surrounding Mars will allow life destroying radiation to hit the surface, thereby rendering it unfeasible to survive there.

Now I and some of my friends have speculated as to the possibility of creating an artificial magnetic field for Mars, but it is still an open question whether such an idea is feasible.

Also, the absence of a significant moon is another detriment for the planet. Likewise the recent discovery that the solar wind seems to be sweeping up great chunks of the Martian atmosphere and throwing it out into space. (As it is also doing to Earth.)

Mars needs more mass and quite likely more water. Perhaps we could steer some asteroids\comets\debris into it to create a bigger moon, and maybe raise the mass?

Mars is going to need a lot of terraforming to become a decent planet.

I would guess that initially the bigelow inflatable habitats would simply be buried, covered with martian regolith as protection against radiation. This would eventually evolve onto what would be known as the "old city" on mars, buried modules eventually supplemented by tunnels passageways etc using martian raw materials. Decades later if the bank of mars takes off population/wealth grows..could easily imagine a domed over crater on mars, maybe inner and outer dome filled with water as shielding, fully pressurized interior. First step global terraforming would probably be factories on mars generating super greenhouse gases: http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/200501 ... _sys.shtml Some of them have 9000X more effect than CO2 does. Warmup the planet to the point where the CO2 in the icecaps and permafrost start evaporating into the atmosphere greatly increasing the warming. You could have a warm wet liquid water at the surface environment on Mars in decades.

9000x more effective than C02? I am having trouble accepting that. If there are such gases, it would seem to me they must be some sort of synthesis. To my knowledge, water vapor seems to have the best spectral absorption characteristics, but the planet would have to be warmed up a bit just to get water into the atmosphere. I've read the idea of putting huge mirrors in orbit. Maybe such a thing could work.


I suppose people could survive for a limited time in buried habitats, but I wouldn't think it would be practical for long term living. I suppose it's a start.

Just to get that far we need polywell (or some other energy source) powered VASMIR rockets.

Even better, if we could steer the helium nuclei (P-B11 reaction) towards the rear, (seemingly dooable) we could simply generate our thrust directly with a polywell.

[Skipjack]

My idea for Mars colonization was to terraform it first.
IITC, the earths magnetic fields are created by the rotation of earths iron core and the friction against the mantle. Mars seemingly does not have any seismic activity anymore and therefore no more magnetic field.
How about giving it back the seismic activity? My idea was to play some sort of cosmic ping pong (which I think is way beyond our current capabilities to calculate correctly). Basically start by pushing a smaller asteroid from the asteroid belt into a bigger one and that one into an even bigger one to finally run either a very large asteroid into Mars or maybe even use it to finally degrace Phobos' orbit so much that it will crash into Mars. The resulting forces might be enough to kick start some activity on Mars to generate a magnetic field. In addition you could use it to free gasses that could form a new atmosphere. It would also warm it up a bit. Of course the planet would be inhabitable for a loooong time, but my thinking was always that mankind has to learn to think in millenia if we want to survive as a species.
Of course currently we are far away from the technology needed to do any of that. I would think that a moon base would be more realistic for now and the conditions are not really that much better on Mars right now anyway.
In any way, we need to solve the problem of access to orbit first. This should be the first goal. Elon Musk recognizes this as well and he is actively working on that. For the nearterm, he does have a good plan. I do however not think that the direction they are working in, will bring things far enough. If I was him, I would fund breakthrough technology: Polywells, DPFs and Sloughs fusion engines.
These are more long term, but ultimately more what he needs (if they work).

then again, why would anyone in theoir right mind climb out af a deep well only to jump down another?

Once you are in space, colonize SPACE.

Can you say "O'Neill"?

The problem is that you have to bring all that material to make an O'Neill colony up the gravitational well too. So I am not so sure that you would really save that much energy.

[williatw]

9000x more effective than C02? I am having trouble accepting that. If there are such gases, it would seem to me they must be some sort of synthesis. To my knowledge, water vapor seems to have the best spectral absorption characteristics, but the planet would have to be warmed up a bit just to get water into the atmosphere.

This might interest you: http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/oct2008 ... -24-01.asp Quoting: A gas used in manufacture of flat panel televisions, computer displays, microcircuits, and thin-film solar panels is 17,000 times more potent a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, and it is far more prevalent in the atmosphere than previously estimated. The powerful greenhouse gas nitrogen trifluoride, NF3, is at least four times more widespread than scientists had believed, according to new research by a team at Scripps Institution of Oceanography at the University of California, San Diego.
Bad news for earth good news for mars.

[Diogenes]

then again, why would anyone in theoir right mind climb out af a deep well only to jump down another?

Once you are in space, colonize SPACE.

Can you say "O'Neill"?

Years ago I read that weightlessness causes severe atrophy of muscles and bones, and that it is impossible for the human body to remain healthy for long periods of weightlessness.

Living in the weightlessness of space is not something the human body can evolve to tolerate in the short term. It is contrary to our current nature. Now if someone could come up with some artificial gravity...

[Luzr]

IMO, it is all foolish, all this plans about changing parts of space to fit human biology.

We should do it other way: change ourselves (and/or our descendants) to fit the space...

If rovers can survive on Mars with our current technology for years, why, in 20-30 years, something more intelligent and self-replicating could not thrive there (and elsewhere) too?

[Luzr]

The problem is that you have to bring all that material to make an O'Neill colony up the gravitational well too. So I am not so sure that you would really save that much energy.

But it does not have to be Earth's well....

[Luzr]

then again, why would anyone in theoir right mind climb out af a deep well only to jump down another?

Once you are in space, colonize SPACE.

Can you say "O'Neill"?

Years ago I read that weightlessness causes severe atrophy of muscles and bones, and that it is impossible for the human body to remain healthy for long periods of weightlessness.

Living in the weightlessness of space is not something the human body can evolve to tolerate in the short term. It is contrary to our current nature. Now if someone could come up with some artificial gravity...

Is not it why O'Neill is rotating around axis?

[Skipjack]

Is not it why O'Neill is rotating around axis?

Beat me to it!

[Diogenes]

then again, why would anyone in theoir right mind climb out af a deep well only to jump down another?

Once you are in space, colonize SPACE.

Can you say "O'Neill"?

Years ago I read that weightlessness causes severe atrophy of muscles and bones, and that it is impossible for the human body to remain healthy for long periods of weightlessness.

Living in the weightlessness of space is not something the human body can evolve to tolerate in the short term. It is contrary to our current nature. Now if someone could come up with some artificial gravity...

Is not it why O'Neill is rotating around axis?

I'm Not that much of a space bug. Not up on all the jargon.

[Betruger]

My idea for Mars colonization was to terraform it first.
...
Of course the planet would be inhabitable for a loooong time, but my thinking was always that mankind has to learn to think in millenia if we want to survive as a species.

Of course currently we are far away from the technology needed to do any of that.

The current millenia picture is that mankind has no backup for the very real prospect of worldwide cataclysm, natural or not.
We aren't going to sit around on Earth surface doing nothing for millenia, waiting to reach this technological readiness. Colonization now is better, even if purposefully limited in recognition of terraforming rather than immediate, as-is, maximum colonization being the priority.

And IIRC there's been enthusiastic BoE studies of intermediate terraform: at least partially closed loop (ie some kind of dome system) atmosphere over all of Hellas basin. My really vague and maybe wrong memory is that the hydrodynamics work out so that maintaining an artificial open-air atmosphere is feasible in that basin.

I would think that a moon base would be more realistic for now and the conditions are not really that much better on Mars right now anyway.

Have you seen the size of Mars' underground glaciers? Initial colonies could easily nest in there.