Asymmetric capacitor in High Vacuum

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EmField57
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:36 pm

Post by EmField57 »

Based on the research of others and the exhaustive work of Jean Naudin who tested lifters in numerous ways years ago including using sealed vacuum tubes around the + charged wire and separating the + and - electrodes with cardboard to prevent the movement of any air, to see if the craft worked anyway (it did), it appears irrefutable that lifters don't work based on ion wind or antigravity, as was thought by some, but
based on the principle of ion cloud attraction.

Quoted from Naudin's site the mechanism is explained this way:

Near the positive electrode ( the thin wire showed with a red square in the animated picture above ), where the potential gradient is very high, the electrons are stripped off the atoms and the molecules of the surrounding medium ( the air ). These electrons migrate quickly to the positive electrode where they are collected. This removal of free electrons leaves the respective atoms and molecules positively charged, this creates a positive ionic cloud ( in orange ) around the wire and thus above the negative electrode ( the aluminum plate, in green ). The aluminum plate, attracted by the positive ionic cloud, moves upward due to an electrostatic force ( as a plastic ruler positively charged which attracts some pieces of aluminum sheets ). Moreover, the positive ionic cloud, attracted by the aluminum plate ( the negative electrode ) and repelled by the positive electrode, moves downward following the electric field lines. The positively charged atoms and molecules have their positive charge neutralized by the negative plate. Their impacts are so strong that excess electrons are stripped from the plate and captured by these atoms and molecules which become negatively charged. This creates a negative ionic cloud ( in light blue ) which is repelled downwards by the aluminum plate increasing the upward thrust of the Lifter.

The positive ionic cloud is continuously generated around the positive electrode and the process is repeated again and again.


http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/ekpsim/index.htm

Now this system works well in an atmosphere since an ion cloud can readily form in that environment, but in a vacuum the typical triangular lifter design won't work since the dielectric in that design is air and sans air as we saw on mythbusters it won't work.

What is believed to work however is a lifter with a solid dielectric between two electrodes. And the material can be any High K material such as barium titanate etc.. And with the use of that kind of material ion cloud formation should occur and generate the expected propulsion given that even in space we see plasmas (clouds of ions) forming naturally with sufficient voltage.

Danielone
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:55 pm
Location: Italy

Post by Danielone »

What is believed to work however is a lifter with a solid dielectric between two electrodes. And the material can be any High K material such as barium titanate etc.. And with the use of that kind of material ion cloud formation should occur and generate the expected propulsion given that even in space we see plasmas (clouds of ions) forming naturally with sufficient voltage.
Are these actual experiments or just a guess?

Have anybody tried a systematic research on thrust depending on shapes and dielectric constants?

There are basically two paths. The effect is purely due to ion wind. The effect is not solely due to ion wind. The supporters of the second case should provide a series of comparative experimental facts that enable to draw or discard some conclusions. This is the only viable way to get a theory. Experiments in vacuum do not help in this direction (at least in a preliminary context).

Did somebody tested an asymmetric metallic device embedded in a high dielectric constant medium?
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EmField57
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:36 pm

Post by EmField57 »

Danielone wrote:
What is believed to work however is a lifter with a solid dielectric between two electrodes. And the material can be any High K material such as barium titanate etc.. And with the use of that kind of material ion cloud formation should occur and generate the expected propulsion given that even in space we see plasmas (clouds of ions) forming naturally with sufficient voltage.
Are these actual experiments or just a guess?

Have anybody tried a systematic research on thrust depending on shapes and dielectric constants?

There are basically two paths. The effect is purely due to ion wind. The effect is not solely due to ion wind. The supporters of the second case should provide a series of comparative experimental facts that enable to draw or discard some conclusions. This is the only viable way to get a theory. Experiments in vacuum do not help in this direction (at least in a preliminary context).

Did somebody tested an asymmetric metallic device embedded in a high dielectric constant medium?
A guess at this point, given that to my knowledge no rigorous testing of such a device has occurred.

And if that method doesn't work there are other ways around it to allow for propulsion in a vacuum.

Danielone
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:55 pm
Location: Italy

Post by Danielone »

And if that method doesn't work there are other ways around it to allow for propulsion in a vacuum.


There are two elements one cannot do without: high-voltage, asymmetry. The asymmetry can be due to the conductive part (lifters for example), to the dielectric part (as in the Serrano patent), or a combination of both. I understand that there is plenty of devices producing thrust, it would be nice to have a comparative list based on their performances.

I have a basic question. How do the thrust behave as a function of the voltage? Some experiments show a linear growth. However the electric field is proportional to the voltage and the energy grows as the square of the electric field. Shouldn't we get a quadratic increase of the momentum as a function of the voltage?

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