Iran may have acquired Nuclear War Heads.
they are just the local garden variety of powerhungry "I want world dominance" kind of nut and not the suicide bomber religious kind of nut.
And again, what do you base this on?
It runs contrary to everything they have said, right?
It runs contrary to their open founding and support of Hezbollah, right?
What factual reason do you have to believe they are not the religious nuts that they in all ways appear to be? We are a long way in now, and you have still not offered any reason or factual basis behind your 'opinion'.
We are bordering on something akin to declaring "pigs can fly, but they just choose to act like they can't, all the time, in every way". When all the facts point against an idea, you need something or your just gonna see your own opinion dismissed as being nuts as well.
And again, what do you base this on?
It runs contrary to everything they have said, right?
It runs contrary to their open founding and support of Hezbollah, right?
What factual reason do you have to believe they are not the religious nuts that they in all ways appear to be? We are a long way in now, and you have still not offered any reason or factual basis behind your 'opinion'.
We are bordering on something akin to declaring "pigs can fly, but they just choose to act like they can't, all the time, in every way". When all the facts point against an idea, you need something or your just gonna see your own opinion dismissed as being nuts as well.
Logic, history and talking to people from the region...And again, what do you base this on?
Admittedly, we have way to many of them here, but it gives me the odd opportunity to proble their minds, every now and then. Quite enlightening.
Anyway, it is always about the power, it is always about the money. dont you get that? The religion thing is just to get the general public in the respective country in line. The average shepherd in Iran does not care about a territorial conflict more than a thousand kilometres away.
He does care about religion though.
So those in power use religion to motivate the general public to do their bidding, e.g. to go against Israel.
If they are talking on TV using all those strong words and this ridiculous rhetoric. Who do you think they are talking to? Israel? Or their people?
Read between the lines!
One of the nice things about Iran and the nuclear threat is that the Iranian leadership provide us with an optimal targeting solution. Usually once a year they have a big rally in Tehran, completely concentrated in one open square.
All the top religious leaders are on the same podium, next in line are the top generals, next are the trained suicide bombers, then the Republican Guard. They display all the latest weapons inventory, and surrounding these top brass are about a million of the most devout of followers. Maybe 2 or 3 square miles, no dissidents in sight, all chanting death to America/death to Isreal/death/death/death/praise Allah.
Hezbollah have done exactly the same thing in Lebanon, only on a smaller scale. Rather than waiting around to retaliate after they've nuked a few million people in Isreal or some western city, or sending in the army for large scale house to house fighting and accidently bombing the opposition, why don't we simply oblige their desire for martyrdom.
B-52's, 6 miles up, Alpha strike! The way they used to do things in the Old Testament.
All the top religious leaders are on the same podium, next in line are the top generals, next are the trained suicide bombers, then the Republican Guard. They display all the latest weapons inventory, and surrounding these top brass are about a million of the most devout of followers. Maybe 2 or 3 square miles, no dissidents in sight, all chanting death to America/death to Isreal/death/death/death/praise Allah.
Hezbollah have done exactly the same thing in Lebanon, only on a smaller scale. Rather than waiting around to retaliate after they've nuked a few million people in Isreal or some western city, or sending in the army for large scale house to house fighting and accidently bombing the opposition, why don't we simply oblige their desire for martyrdom.
B-52's, 6 miles up, Alpha strike! The way they used to do things in the Old Testament.
CHoff
Sure. But sometimes these things take on a life of their own. What kind of accidents is the system biased towards?If they are talking on TV using all those strong words and this ridiculous rhetoric. Who do you think they are talking to? Israel? Or their people?
Read between the lines!
I hate to keep harping on this but the worse things went domestically/economically for he Austrian Corporal the more aggressive he got on the world stage. He needed to loot his conquests to keep going.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
Specifics please. Waving your hands and declaring your evidence is people you've talked to and history doesn't cut it. Particularly when there is serious question over who you mean by "them". From your prior statements, I fear you've been talking with Arabs or maybe even just moderate western muslims about the matter. Those aren't the best sources for probing the mindset of fundamentalist Persians.Skipjack wrote:Logic, history and talking to people from the region...
Admittedly, we have way to many of them here, but it gives me the odd opportunity to proble their minds, every now and then. Quite enlightening.
Give something specific, not just the animated waving of your hands!
Are you sure you've spoken with any conservative Shia muslims, let alone any from Iran? The Ayatollah isn't 'just' the supreme leader of the Iranian theocracy. He is the direct equivalent and parallel to the Pope. He is the same to Shia Muslims as the Pope is to Roman Catholics, right down to how he manages to get the position through decades of devout training and study under previous religious scholars. You may have noticed that despite all the power reasons, the selection and grooming process for that kind of leadership very often includes an honest to goodness real belief in the faith as well.Skipjack wrote:Anyway, it is always about the power, it is always about the money. dont you get that? The religion thing is just to get the general public in the respective country in line.
If they are talking on TV using all those strong words and this ridiculous rhetoric. Who do you think they are talking to? Israel? Or their people?
Read between the lines!
Oh, I see now. No worries then. They are merely training masses numbering in the millions to have a soul deep religious conviction to see Israel removed from the map. Now that you've pointed out that Israel isn't the audience for these talks, it seems harmless enough. Surely no cause for concern, even if they were to acquire nuclear weapons surely they wouldn't use them. Nor is it even remotely likely that the million strong fundamentalist base they've built will fight hard to see that happen.
You've still offered NOTHING to back up your claims but your insistence that they are only using religion as a tool. Sure that trick has been used lots through out history. I suppose you'd have told us all not to worry about the crusades materializing either, as it was just a bunch of a religious rhetoric as well.
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You are using logic that flies in the face of your own nations history. Sometimes rhetoric designed to unite a people isn't rhetoric at all.Skipjack wrote:Logic, history and talking to people from the region...And again, what do you base this on?
Admittedly, we have way to many of them here, but it gives me the odd opportunity to proble their minds, every now and then. Quite enlightening.
Anyway, it is always about the power, it is always about the money. dont you get that? The religion thing is just to get the general public in the respective country in line. The average shepherd in Iran does not care about a territorial conflict more than a thousand kilometres away.
He does care about religion though.
So those in power use religion to motivate the general public to do their bidding, e.g. to go against Israel.
If they are talking on TV using all those strong words and this ridiculous rhetoric. Who do you think they are talking to? Israel? Or their people?
Read between the lines!
Alternately, sometimes, after uniting a people around a common enemy, keeping power requires following through against that common enemy.
So, whether a matter of power and control or real craziness, the results may be the same.
Too many of 'them'? Who is them?Admittedly, we have way to many of them here, but it gives me the odd opportunity to proble their minds, every now and then. Quite enlightening.
Which kinda makes my point. The selection of the pope is a political decision too. Unless you define points like conservative, progressive, origin, etc as faith based selection.He is the same to Shia Muslims as the Pope is to Roman Catholics, right down to how he manages to get the position through decades of devout training and study under previous religious scholars. You may have noticed that despite all the power reasons, the selection and grooming process for that kind of leadership very often includes an honest to goodness real belief in the faith as well.
If you think that these things dont play an important role in the selection of the pope, you are naive, or a very devout catholic, which also makes you naive.
No.Skipjack wrote:Which kinda makes my point. The selection of the pope is a political decision too. Unless you define points like conservative, progressive, origin, etc as faith based selection.He is the same to Shia Muslims as the Pope is to Roman Catholics, right down to how he manages to get the position through decades of devout training and study under previous religious scholars. You may have noticed that despite all the power reasons, the selection and grooming process for that kind of leadership very often includes an honest to goodness real belief in the faith as well.
If you think that these things dont play an important role in the selection of the pope, you are naive, or a very devout catholic, which also makes you naive.
What's absurd in the extreme is your insistence that religious belief and devotion have NOTHING to do with either post. Moreover, you declare it is so true it doesn't even require an iota of evidence.
Nobody has denied that the pursuit of power and influence is riddled throughout the leader's thoughts, just the simple addition of religious ideals being in the mix as well. Their words and actions back up my position, and I must repeat, what is there that has convinced you of yours?
related to Iran getting the bomb:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/julian- ... n-blogging
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/julian- ... n-blogging
Right. And it's left our history free of holy war after holy war after holy war....Skipjack wrote:Please think for a moment!
When have religious leaders ever believed their own crap?
It is a historical fact that they have not. It has always been about power and dominance and control. It has never been about religion!
I would disagree with the Turkey part. It is a pretty even split, and mostly based on economics, not religion. It is the few nuts, stirring the poor, making them think it is about religion, even when most of them understand it is not. However, the incentive for "free stuff" from the government is a powerful tool to gain votes. Margaret Thatcher comes to mind <again>...Skipjack wrote:The nazis were nuts, but not suicidal nuts. You are claiming that the Iranian leadership consists of suicidal nuts.
I think that these sorts of nuts are rather rare.
People from Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, UAE and most of all Turkey.Too many of 'them'? Who is them?