Rise of the Machines.

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bcglorf
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:58 pm

Re: Like any weapons

Post by bcglorf »

MSimon wrote:
bcglorf wrote:I'm actually rather surprised that with all the automated drones about there isn't a greater usage of similar equipment just mounted on wheels instead.

As for Diogenes concerns, I share them. The only solution for it seems to be make sure that we are the ones that get the best ones first, just like every other game changing weapon out there.

As for change, they will represent a significant one to combat. If they can be fully automated and don't require a human at the controls of each bot, there is nothing stopping a single human with a large factory from having 100k bots at their sole command. That is a very big deal if you ask me.
Well stopping it would be a single human with a factory capable of making 200K better ones in the same time frame.
Which is exactly the problem. Military superiority will be shifted from those able to inspire human loyalty, to those with the more factory output.

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

Uhm... I agree in part.
I think the biggest shift will be toward who has the most raw materials available. Same as it was in the past centuries, when the biggest asset for a country strength was actually the total amount of the population they could convert in soldiers.

Just my 0,02$.

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

And if you are low on resources, why not send your army next door? If you can mobilize the maximum percent, and send them, resource grabs make sense.
Look at the Japanese in WWII. If they had stuck with the resource grab, and not picked a fight on top of it, things probably would have been different. That Southwest resource area had a lot to offer. And sitcking with the first island chain for a perimeter was certainly doable

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

I guess it all depends if the guy next door has a bigger army than your :D

Diogenes
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Post by Diogenes »

Giorgio wrote:Uhm... I agree in part.
I think the biggest shift will be toward who has the most raw materials available. Same as it was in the past centuries, when the biggest asset for a country strength was actually the total amount of the population they could convert in soldiers.

Just my 0,02$.
So you are saying that a nation has a vested interest in insuring that it has robust population creation?

If this were true it would seem like these nations would promote or condone activities which encourage the creation of New Citizens, (and their support structures) such as Marriage, and disdain for birth control and extramarital relationships.



:)
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Giorgio
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Location: China, Italy

Post by Giorgio »

No, it was a comparison. I was meaning that in the past the "raw materials" for an army was the population.

Not that I will disdain if a country actually supported extramarital relationships. :)

Diogenes
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Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

Giorgio wrote:No, it was a comparison. I was meaning that in the past the "raw materials" for an army was the population.

Not that I will disdain if a country actually supported extramarital relationships. :)
It was a subtle point.

Obviously I think it IS in the best interest of a Nation to insure it's defense by producing defenders.
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

IntLibber
Posts: 747
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:28 pm

Post by IntLibber »

Diogenes wrote:Image


http://tutorialfeed.net/development/jqu ... ecognition


Above is a link to a page showing what appears to be C++ algorithms for doing facial recognition on the fly. (real time.) It is a short step from locating a head to aiming a gun at it.

This is why I say a Robot could shoot your head off 100 ms after it shows up within it's video range. Calibrated accurately, it simply wouldn't miss. Ever.
Which is why you wear a robotic face mask and spoof their IFF codes. C'mon, think up something tough.

IntLibber
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:28 pm

Post by IntLibber »

ladajo wrote:And if you are low on resources, why not send your army next door? If you can mobilize the maximum percent, and send them, resource grabs make sense.
Look at the Japanese in WWII. If they had stuck with the resource grab, and not picked a fight on top of it, things probably would have been different. That Southwest resource area had a lot to offer. And sitcking with the first island chain for a perimeter was certainly doable
Yeah if they'd stayed the heck away from any US posessions we'd have stayed out of the fight for at least another year while Roosevelt ginned up some new scam to get us into the war.

Diogenes
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Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

Another example of why letting machines become soldiers is a bad idea.


http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/fear-and-l ... ry-guards/
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

jmc
Posts: 427
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:16 am
Location: Ireland

Post by jmc »

One possibility that I think has not yet been raised in this thread is the possibility that instead of someone bad taking over a robot army what if something bad did instead.

Do you really think its necessarily going to end with robot soldiers?

What about computer programmes replacing generals, majors, colonels and perhaps someday even the leader of a country?

We already have trading algorithms that make most of the decisions for day traders, if computer algorythms can deploy assets and money, how long will it be before they will own assets and money?

How long will it be before the first 0 employee corporations arrive? Farm run by intelligent machines with decisions made by intelligent automated CEO programmes which buy the inputs (i.e. fertilizers, far machinery etc.) from companies with humans in them, sell the farm produce to humans, and then automatically forward all the profits to the human shareholders, with not employees salaries anywhere.

I imagine from the perspective of the human shareholders of the company, having an automated CEO computer programme that can make better decisions than a human CEO and doesn't any salary but instead forwards all profit to the shareholders would be very advantageous.

Or what about companies in the service sector, theater companies etc. where humans are best at interacting with other humans but computers are best at the managerial tasks, how long will it be before humans are employed and work for computers, before companies exist where humans work on the lower level at interacting with other humans but where all the important decisions are made by computers?

How long will it be before the point where human input into the economy approaches zero. If I'm an employer and I'm looking to hire someone, I'm going to choose to hire the person who will do the best job for the lowest wage. How long will it be before every conceivable job or economic function can be done better by a computer than a human?

Consider the rules of the technosphere, anything that becomes obsolete (i.e. has no competitive economic function) will dissappear, steam locomotives dissappeared when Diesel Engines reached the point where they do everything that Steam Engines could do only better.

What happens when human being become obsolete, in that every conceivable economic function we can perform can be performed better by a computer?

Will we dissappear like the steam engine?

Luzr
Posts: 269
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:23 pm

Post by Luzr »

jmc wrote: Will we dissappear like the steam engine?
Well, hopefully, machines will keep us as pets:)

More seriously, scenario you describe is most likely inevitable and it is what is called 'singularity'. Obviously, at some point, "the world as we know it" will disappear.

Diogenes
Posts: 6958
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »



Drone weapons systems risk leading us to "a Terminator-like reality," warns a British government study


Image
It is essential that before unmanned systems become ubiquitous (if it is not already too late) … we ensure that, by removing some of the horror, or at least keeping it at a distance, we do not risk losing our controlling humanity and make war more likely.

http://io9.com/?_escaped_fragment_=5793 ... ment-study
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Diogenes
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Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »


Britain Launches Final Real-Life Skynet Satellite, Dubs it Skynet with No Sense of Irony


Image
Adam Frucci — The UK has just sent up a new communications satellite that's completed their Skynet, the highly-advanced network that's going to give them the ability to allow robotic military units at long range. You know, like in the apocalyptic vision of the future from the Terminator movies. The network's name in those movies? Skynet. Have you learned nothing, England?!

http://gizmodo.com/#!5016312/britain-la ... e-of-irony
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

ladajo
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Post by ladajo »

Given that you can drive any robot remotely over a satellite data path, I find this somewhat lacking in its impact.

Media sensationalism.

The real drama in remote op. is what you want back from, it is really not an issue with the what you tell it part. I see with newer machines and designs pushing the aotunomous function envelope further and further, there will be a crossing point regarding machine feedback, and the desirability to do it given bandwidth limitations. The remote op capability in the field now can completely overwhelm available infrastructure, and we are continuing to build unit faster than adding bandwidth or bandwidth amelioration technology. Something has got to give, and it could well continue on limiting the man in the loop.

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