Go navy!

[ladajo]

Yup.

Although to be fair, ships with ASW air assets can make a submarine pretty nerovous.

My point of view is that you will generally get the boat, but to do so will cost a ship (or two if you do not set it up correctly).

[rjaypeters]

And while the ASW assets hunt the submarine ("How many are there?" the admiral wonders), is the mission envisioned for the _incredibly_ expensive BBs (and her escorts) described on the previous pages getting done?

I doubt it. Few recognize the submarine is the de facto capital ship of the modern era.

In time, the submarine's current status will give way to Diogenes suggestion of the water gliders and their descendents.

Should we not have this discussion over at the Naval Institute?

[choff]

Ever hear of this ship, the SMS Wolf? If a hostile nation had a close to 100 of them at sea, unknown and and unsuspected outside of critical ports and sealanes, especially in the path of naval vessels, they could cause complete mayhem at the beginning of a war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Wolf_( ... y_cruiser)

[ladajo]

And while the ASW assets hunt the submarine ("How many are there?" the admiral wonders), is the mission envisioned for the _incredibly_ expensive BBs (and her escorts) described on the previous pages getting done?

I doubt it. Few recognize the submarine is the de facto capital ship of the modern era.

In time, the submarine's current status will give way to Diogenes suggestion of the water gliders and their descendents.

Should we not have this discussion over at the Naval Institute?

Yes Submarines are potent, but with a caveat. They need to be in the right hands. They require incredible levels of maintenance and training to stay on top of the game. Currently the US and very few others are able to do this with any real bench depth or levels of competency. The russians and chinese are not on this list. They have some bench depth but very poor maintenance and training. The russians have the ability to train up better but face resource issues to do so. The chinese still have no idea what they are doing.

As for a large captial ship, torpedo defense is not as hard as some make it out to be. Especially if you know it is coming. The passive systems and methods can work, as well as a large ship being much better able to take the hit than a small one. If the other guy goes nuclear, then odds are he will not survive his own attack. Underwater nuclear detonations are very bad for submarines at a good distance.

[choff]

See this today, an enemy vessel can masquerade as a commercial ship, doesn't even need a weapon, just act real innocent alongside and then do a hard turn at the right moment.

http://news.ca.msn.com/canada/video.asp ... a61a90d978

[mvanwink5]

Is this article of any significance?
"Silent Running, Russian attack submarine sailed in Gulf of Mexico undetected for weeks, U.S. officials say"
http://freebeacon.com/silent-running/

[DeltaV]

Armed with SS-N-21 Sampson Tomahawkski variant.

[ladajo]

Is this article of any significance?
"Silent Running, Russian attack submarine sailed in Gulf of Mexico undetected for weeks, U.S. officials say"
http://freebeacon.com/silent-running/

It is significant in that there are public declarations that the Russian's are back to doing some out of area patrols.

It is also significant to note that the Akula design is actually pretty old. What makes it "quiet" is the Toshiba Multi-Axial Milling Machine drama from the 80's.

What is funny is that it was driving around in the Gulf Of Mexico. Not much navy traffic there...they must have felt pretty lonely.

Personally, I think the Bear incursion was more interesting. Idiots.

[mvanwink5]

Perhaps the Russians are doing a sales demo for the Iranians, some used subs for some bootleg petro dollars. Israel has subs, so to keep up with the Jones' and irritate the US...

[ladajo]

Interesting thought.

BTW, in case anyone did not know, the SS-N-21, 25 and 27 series weapons are Anti-Ship systems.

[DeltaV]

BTW, in case anyone did not know, the SS-N-21, 25 and 27 series weapons are Anti-Ship systems.

SS-N-27, yes.
SS-N-25, yes.
SS-N-21, no.

SS-N-21 uses TERCOM and has a 200kt warhead. Ground targets.

http://www.missilethreat.com/cruise/id. ... detail.asp
(Error - "Range: 2.00 km". No. More like 2000+ km.)

[ladajo]

Yes, you are correct. I rushed it and was thinking Sunburn in my head. SS-N-22. Which is surface launched only.

Thanks for catching my error.

To be clear, Akulas were built as deep ocean SSBN hunters. They traditionally have not been emplyed as strategic launch assets. Not to say that given the sad state of affairs in the russian submarine force these days, that has not changed. Although a Gulf of Mexico run with 21s would seem to be more or less pointless. Not many high value targets in that circle. About one, off the top of my head, which would be Kingsbay.
Dunno, 21 is a first strike type weapon. Which is normally reserved for leadership and strategic systems. So it does not really add up well.
I guess you could argue Strat airfields, but scramble times would beat the flight times, and the 21 is not a particularly stealthy weapon.

[Diogenes]

Perhaps the Russians are doing a sales demo for the Iranians, some used subs for some bootleg petro dollars. Israel has subs, so to keep up with the Jones' and irritate the US...

Narco Suppliers?

[Netmaker]

Lots of oil/gas drills (more than 3000), terminal facilities and storage tanks plus Mississippi traffic for export or transit to the US coasts. A huge portion of the nation's economy goes through the Gulf.

Perhaps using seal teams from a sub to place remotely triggered demo packs on the drilling rigs? The Deepwater Horizon blowout was a huge disaster and that was just one rig. Israel attacks Iran, Iran blocks the Straits, Russia blows up a major rig in the Gulf and makes it look like an accident... We'll be looking at $200 bbl (swag) for oil which would be really good for the Russian economy.

A show the flag run for Latin American countries. I know that's really devastating... But from a long term perspective it would be worth it. More so than driving the sub around the US East/West coast. Moral support for Chavez and the Castro brothers (especially given the possibilities for regime change in Venezuela and Cuba) , influence for future arms sales and reminding Brazil that they still have global reach.

Probably a moral boost for the sub's crew if they do port calls. An important consideration for a military that's been in decline for decades.

[DeltaV]

Although a Gulf of Mexico run with 21s would seem to be more or less pointless. Not many high value targets in that circle. About one, off the top of my head, which would be Kingsbay.

Barksdale. Eglin. Canaveral. Johnson. Pantex Amarillo. Ok City. Los Alamos. Sandia. Lock-Mart Orlando/Marietta/Ft. Worth. Redstone/Marshall. Whiteman. Wright-Pat. Langley. Norfolk. Pascagoula. Refineries. TVA. Pipelines. DC. The list is endless from that location with that range, combined with terrain following.

Dunno, 21 is a first strike type weapon. Which is normally reserved for leadership and strategic systems. So it does not really add up well.

See above.

I guess you could argue Strat airfields, but scramble times would beat the flight times, and the 21 is not a particularly stealthy weapon.

You're assuming no 21 launch under heavy cloud cover, orbital detection assets not confusing launch flare with an oil rig flare, anti-cruise assets (such as they are) looking at the right valleys at the right time and all bombers on alert (B-52 alert-to-airborne time ~ 15 min). BTW, no bombers have been on "strategic" alert since 1991.