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93143
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Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:51 pm

Post by 93143 »

Skipjack wrote:I think railguns and lasers have different uses. Lasers against approaching cruise missiles and planes. Railguns against enemy ships and targets on shore.
Exactly. And these weapons tend to be large and power-hungry. A heavily-armoured nuclear-powered (or fusion-powered) battleship with big railgun turrets for distant shore bombardment and laser batteries for defense would be a very potent gun platform and a very hard target.

It just seems to me that railguns hold the promise of raising the profile of naval guns somewhat against the currently vastly more important aircraft and missiles, and lasers hold the promise of reducing the effectiveness of enemy aircraft and missiles against large surface assets. What was the reason battleships were retired in favour of supercarriers and missile cruisers again?

zapkitty
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Post by zapkitty »

93143 wrote:What was the reason battleships were retired in favour of supercarriers and missile cruisers again?
Armor. A classic BB is armored. The immense cost of the armaments and armor of a battleship in its heyday represented a sizable investment of national wealth... and national prestige.

And that massive armor could hope to shrug off hits from a BB's peers...

... but as you know armor lost that race some time ago and shows no signs of catching up any time soon. And so when one plane + one bomb or torpedo = bye-bye BB then the battleship was no longer cost effective.

Now, lasers might help greatly with one side of that equation but neither lasers nor railguns can help a ship withstand a hit from a smaller, less expense opposite number.

A single enemy railgun mounted on a fast platform itself equipped with laser AA could render your brand new and very expensive BB... rather cost ineffective.

So an actual old-style battleship? I think not at this time.

Their replacements, the carriers, have proven far more versatile in practical use than the battleships ever did.

But a BB in appearance? Possibly.

Ships have been growing in size. A large frigate now approaches the size of a WWII destroyer and a current destroyer is now about as big as a WWII cruiser. A cruiser optimized for railguns and lasers would bear no small resemblance to the BB of yore... but it could not represent the relative investment in time and resources that a BB did.

Not without also investing in the same sort of battle group that protects a carrier. ..

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

The airplane has made the battleship obsolete. Supercarriers are the new battleships. That said, they would probably have room and power enough for a couple of lasers and railguns.

zapkitty
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Post by zapkitty »

Skipjack wrote:The airplane has made the battleship obsolete. Supercarriers are the new battleships. That said, they would probably have room and power enough for a couple of lasers and railguns.
Megawatts of laser AA would change the part of the equation that currently favors aircraft and missiles... but as for anything the lasers might not be able to stop?

Then the inability to field practical armor against current weapons comes into play.

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

Skipjack wrote:The airplane has made the battleship obsolete. Supercarriers are the new battleships. That said, they would probably have room and power enough for a couple of lasers and railguns.
Uhh, not really.

Only an idiot would take an aircraft against a modern ship. He would not come home. Very risky business that. But it remains part of what I call, "The Great Carrier Myth".

And, for that matter, the Japanese unknowingly sacrificed reams of pilots against US Radar Controlled Gunnery tossing up (at the the time, highly secret) radar proximity fused (VT) shells. A major techology turning point for the war that does not get much coverage even today as it was kept so well under wraps for so long.
When this was introduced (reluctantly by those who controlled it) during the war in Britain, and then Europe, still under very strict controls and secretly, the kill rate of V-1s and other flying over water German things literally leapt vertically. The initial and mid course deployment required that these "special" rounds be fired only over the water to prevent/minimize possible recovery.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

zapkitty
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Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:13 pm

Post by zapkitty »

ladajo wrote:
Skipjack wrote:The airplane has made the battleship obsolete.
Uhh, not really.

Only an idiot would take an aircraft against a modern ship. He would not come home. Very risky business that. But it remains part of what I call, "The Great Carrier Myth".
? I'd assumed we were all speaking of carrier-borne aircraft employing missiles against enemy ships... not of F-18's trying to be dive bombers :)

93143
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Post by 93143 »

To be honest, I mostly added the "armour" as an afterthought, because that's part of what battleships are known for. The main idea was a large gun platform with strong defenses. With enough laser AA, it could become extremely expensive to launch enough missiles to score a hit. And yes, it would probably have escorts; I'm not proposing a standalone do-everything weapon system here...

...

On the other hand, we still build tanks. And supercarriers have deck armour (admittedly this probably has something to do with protection from flight-deck accidents) and torpedo defences. One strike won't bring down a warship that size unless it's a really hard strike; even smaller ships without heavy armour have survived anti-ship missile strikes...
Then the inability to field practical armor against current weapons comes into play.
I'm not convinced of this. I was under the impression that it was mainly nuclear weapons armour was deemed ineffective against. Certainly the 5" guns on a modern destroyer wouldn't scratch the paint on an Iowa-class BB; even a large missile wouldn't do it unless it were specially designed to penetrate heavy armour... Basically, armour means you have to dedicate expensive resources to penetrating it; it makes on-the-cheap asymmetric warfare solutions (see USS Cole) or even light conventional military weapons much less useful. No armoured platform is capable of withstanding its own firepower, yet we still make them...

Tank armour has gotten pretty sophisticated since WWII. Perhaps some of those techniques could be useful, at least against some types of missiles...? (Though HEAT-type shaped charges would seem to be much less useful against ships than against tanks.) And if you want to get fancy and expensive, our command of carbon allotropes is starting to get interesting...

Also, you're assuming the enemy has railguns and lasers too... which, considering the rate at which the Chinese seem to be stealing American stuff, may not be all that unreasonable...
A single enemy railgun mounted on a fast platform
Nitpick: If I recall correctly, supercarriers are actually the fastest ships in their battle groups, due to the availability of nuclear power. I don't know about maneuverability, but barring "a Polywell in every frigate" (to paraphrase the 1928 Hoover campaign), a ship large enough to pack reactors should be able to outrun (not necessarily outmaneuver) one that isn't. Especially if the smaller one is trying to charge a railgun at the same time...

A large vessel designed for durability, and without explosive magazines, should (I think) be fairly survivable against individual railgun rounds, even if they do penetrate the armour, simply due to its size. A smaller ship, with a much lower rate of fire and probably weapon caliber, should always lose such an engagement.

...

I wonder if a megawatt-class laser could plausibly be used to target incoming railgun rounds... Completely vapourizing a 3.2 kg chunk of copper seems to take about 20 MJ, which means a very large FEL or an unavailably large dwell time (aluminium is about 15 MJ, tungsten 5, DU 2.5)... could a lower-energy pulse laser blow it apart and/or slow it down? Or is it still impractical for the foreseeable future (as I suspect) to reliably target an object that small and fast even with a laser?

...

I love how Wiki lists the MXY-7 Ohka as an anti-ship missile...

choff
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Post by choff »

Looks like the bad guys will have to go low tech with something like sea mines. Later on the question will arise of how to defend ships against particle beam weapons, they might not kill anything by they could be used to damage radar antenna's and leave an opening in the defences.
CHoff

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

zapkitty wrote:
ladajo wrote:
Skipjack wrote:The airplane has made the battleship obsolete.
Uhh, not really.

Only an idiot would take an aircraft against a modern ship. He would not come home. Very risky business that. But it remains part of what I call, "The Great Carrier Myth".
? I'd assumed we were all speaking of carrier-borne aircraft employing missiles against enemy ships... not of F-18's trying to be dive bombers :)
You do not need airplanes to launch ASCMs. The most profitable use of aircraft today in a War at Sea scenario is increasing the surveillance area. If you know its coming, a modern warship can pretty much fight it off. The exception here being the all out saturation attack. But even then, an Aegis ship will do well enough in the aggregate.

As for speed, unless you are going on step, a warships speed is defined by it's length/width ratio and actual length. Most Warship designs cap out at about 35 to 40 knots, after that you are going on step. Since the speed power function is more or less a cube, at 50% power you can get 80% speed. That extra 20% or so takes double the power. In real terms its means that 25 knots is 50% and 30knots is 100% in rough numbers for the average 30knot ship. More power does not mean more speed unless you have enough to take the hull on step and plane. And it also needs to be strong enough to do it. The other option is hydrofoil.

There is a strong argument today to reintroduce the large heavy srmor capital ship, Use of cutting edge armor tech, along with the forefront of ISR and weapons systems. Oh my. It would be something to reckon with. The biggest thing we learned in the Bimini tests was that ships are actually hard to sink with nukes. If you button up, and point the right way, you'll ride out the base surge. The more pressing drama is the whipping. But the crew, properly trained, can mitigate that as well to a great degree.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

? I'd assumed we were all speaking of carrier-borne aircraft employing missiles against enemy ships... not of F-18's trying to be dive bombers
So the LRASM is useless? If so, why is the US developing it?
IF missiles are so useless, then why was there so much noise about the new chinese anti ship missile?

ladajo
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Post by ladajo »

Which Chinese Anti-Ship missile?

And missiles are not useless. They can do things aircraft can not.

Manned aircraft are becoming useless.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Diogenes
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Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by Diogenes »

choff wrote:Looks like the bad guys will have to go low tech with something like sea mines. Later on the question will arise of how to defend ships against particle beam weapons, they might not kill anything by they could be used to damage radar antenna's and leave an opening in the defences.

Fleets of gliders. (Underwater gliders, that is.)
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

Which Chinese Anti-Ship missile?

And missiles are not useless. They can do things aircraft can not.

Manned aircraft are becoming useless.
Oh, I do agree with that. I think that the future is owned by the drones and missiles and other unmanned craft.
There was a big noise arround a "Chinese Anti Ship missile that has the US navy worried" or some crap like that. I tend to think that the media is blowing things out of proportion often for easily visible political reasons, but I think that there is at least some truth at the core of this one:If the Chinese really have a long range anti ship missile and if it really performs as they advertise, then it could in the right circumstances be a danger to a carrier group.

ladajo
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Post by ladajo »

Oh, you must mean this one:

DF-21 Potential Implications

Note: I do personally do not agree with all the follow-on comments by "Tiu Niasing". But he does raise some points to consider critically.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXLKZDVcBt8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtyTH4kKWME
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

rjaypeters
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Location: Summerville SC, USA

Post by rjaypeters »

What do submariners call surface ships? "Targets"
"Aqaba! By Land!" T. E. Lawrence

R. Peters

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