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happyjack27
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Postby happyjack27 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:43 pm

what he said.

ladajo
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Location: North East Coast

Postby ladajo » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:46 pm

America fights because others can not afford it. Not that the US affords it well, just better absorption and a larger scale.
Strength at the negotiation table is always based on perspective. Strength when entering the "Diplomacy by other means phase" is also based on perspective.
Consider the North Korean, Chinese and Soviet perspectives when initiating the fray in Korea. Stalin was clear in his perception that they held the position of strength based on his perspective of the west and specifically the US. That is why he manuevered Mao into proxy support of Kim, and Kim thought he could win.
Even in the War Termination Phase (which lasted two years), the belligerants periodically cycled their own perspectives of strength romanticism. It was not until Stalin's death and Ike assuming the presidency that push came to shove, and Ike went with the 'We aren't kidding anymore' approach that the armistice was settled. At that point the US communicated intent and capability to escalate the conflict to China, and if required beyond to settle it. This included presidential ruminations about strategic strikes in the USSR as well as China.

bcglorf
Posts: 436
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Postby bcglorf » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:05 pm

Skipjack wrote:On the amounts spent on weapons. I think that the US is the country that is fighting the most wars in the world right now, has been for a while actually.
Food for thought.
Also, I do wonder how long the US will be able to afford spending that much money on weapons. Meanwhile the country is falling behind in many areas of science. Education in the US is bad. All along the Chinese are winning economically without firing a single bullet.
Heck even arch enemy Taiwan signed a trade treatment with China just a few weeks ago. There is just no way around it anymore.
It is important to have a strong military, no question about it. But if you keep neglecting the other aspects of your country over it, you will ultimately decline economically and that means that you will loose anyway. In the long term an economically inferior US would not be able to keep up a strong military and the Chinese have lots of time.


And an America with a weaker military will have a harder and harder time competing economically as well as nations jump ship to China for trade partnerships. Competition with China needn't be a zero sum game, and maintain military superiority is one of the best ways to ensure that trade between the two is on terms more favorable to America, while still benefiting both. I'm quite comfortable stating my preference for a world dominated by America over any other major power around right now.

Skipjack wrote:Of course you can always try to maintain your economic strenght by winning wars and thus resources and industry from occupied nations. A country that does that cant be called morally superior though, can it?


That all depends on the nation. You could turn North Korea into a glass crater and still be morally superior to it's current leadership.

As I pointed out before though you are wrong about the need for occupying and stripping nations. It's much more profitable to form equitable trading relationships with nations instead. The stronger your military, the more eager nations are willing to trade with you on more favorable terms supporting economic growth of both.

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:17 pm

And an America with a weaker military will have a harder and harder time competing economically as well as nations jump ship to China for trade partnerships.


Well for once it does not work now, why would it work in a future where the US pockets are empty. You cant force people to do business with you. That sounds really bullyish and that wont make you any friends in the world.

China is among the nations with the strongest economic growth. They have better education than you and they are putting more money into science and economic growth than into military. They will soon overtake you and simply swallow you. The US is already doing a way to large chunk of the manufacturing in China, which means that your economy is more and more dependent on China.


The stronger your military, the more eager nations are willing to trade with you on more favorable terms supporting economic growth of both.

Not working now. People seem more eager to do business with China than ever.

That all depends on the nation. You could turn North Korea into a glass crater and still be morally superior to it's current leadership.

You cant be serious. Most of the people there are poor and have no power, or influence on the political situation in their country. You would mass murder them and think that you are morally superior?!!

bcglorf
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:58 pm

Postby bcglorf » Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:34 pm

Skipjack wrote:
And an America with a weaker military will have a harder and harder time competing economically as well as nations jump ship to China for trade partnerships.


Well for once it does not work now, why would it work in a future where the US pockets are empty. You cant force people to do business with you. That sounds really bullyish and that wont make you any friends in the world.


I'm suggesting something both less sinister and less naive. Simply that China and America will trade regardless. I'm just stating the obvious, that military superiority is an advantage in trade negotiations. One of America's most favourable trading partners is South Korea, and it's position is in no small part it's military influence in the country. Not as a threat against them, but as a protective benefit to them against aggression from the North.

Skipjack wrote:China is among the nations with the strongest economic growth. They have better education than you and they are putting more money into science and economic growth than into military. They will soon overtake you and simply swallow you. The US is already doing a way to large chunk of the manufacturing in China, which means that your economy is more and more dependent on China.


The bigger issue facing both China and America is internal stability and unity. As long as China needs to exert tremendous effort in maintaining unity it can't exert that influence externally. China's spending on science and education aren't even remotely equitable, and will have a great many growing pains to go through along with the benefits.

Interestingly enough the two things still most consistently "made in America" are food and armaments.

Skipjack wrote:
The stronger your military, the more eager nations are willing to trade with you on more favorable terms supporting economic growth of both.

Not working now. People seem more eager to do business with China than ever.

That all depends on the nation. You could turn North Korea into a glass crater and still be morally superior to it's current leadership.

You cant be serious. Most of the people there are poor and have no power, or influence on the political situation in their country. You would mass murder them and think that you are morally superior?!!


Right, I was advocating that being even marginally superior to Kim Jong-Il was a good thing?

My point was simply that there are a great many nations around with horrific leadership that might well be better off with a change in leadership. In NK it's so bad that a quick death is more merciful than the current starvation, forced labor and even chemical weapons testing on you if your disabled.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Postby Skipjack » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:06 pm

In NK it's so bad that a quick death is more merciful than the current starvation, forced labor and even chemical weapons testing on you if your disabled.


I dont have anything to say to that.

As long as China needs to exert tremendous effort in maintaining unity it can't exert that influence externally. China's spending on science and education aren't even remotely equitable, and will have a great many growing pains to go through along with the benefits.


Either you are in complete denial, or you have been living on another planet the last few years. China is now the second largest economy in the world. Despite the recession, their economy is the 4th fastest growing economy in the world.
Science and technology are big in China and they are catching up, in some instances already surpassing other countries.
Quote from Next Big Future:
nextbigfuture wrote:In the last 15 years, Chu said, China has gone from 15th place to 5th in international patents and from 14th place to 2nd place in published research articles. Of fifty or so nuclear reactors under construction around the world, thirty are in China. China just surpassed the U.S. with the world's fastest supercomputer, has a 220-mph rail line that is the fastest in the world, and has broken ground on a rail network almost four times larger than the next most developed rail country, France


nextbigfuture wrote:China is now second in the world in its publication of biomedical research articles, having recently surpassed Japan, the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy, France, Canada and Spain

Sorry, but things like that should make you think.

bcglorf wrote:Interestingly enough the two things still most consistently "made in America" are food and armaments.


nextbigfuture wrote:Of Wal-Mart’s 6,000 suppliers, 5,000 are in China.


And there is more...

China has now replaced the United States as the world’s number one high-technology exporter.

In 1998 China produced about 20,000 research articles, but by 2006 the output had reached 83,000 … overtaking Japan, Germany and the U.K.

Eight of the ten global companies with the largest R&D budgets have established R&D facilities in China, India or both.

During a recent period during which two high-rise buildings were constructed in Los Angeles, over 5,000 were built in Shanghai.

hanelyp
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Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:50 pm

Postby hanelyp » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:40 am

Peace through superior firepower. No one in their right mind picks a fight they'll lose. And if someone not in their right mind picks a fight, best to have the means to put them in their place quickly.

Stoney3K
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Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:24 pm

Postby Stoney3K » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:01 am

It seems the Navy is pushing some radical new techs on their ships.

Not a bad thing, if you look at what's being developed, the new generation of warships is going to be completely electrified. Powered from a Polywell, free electron lasers for missile defense and close range capabilities, and railguns for long range assault.

Now if they just found something new for those torpedoes, we're in a whole new generation of warfare. Don't forget that the most ground-breaking techs have historically been made during wartimes, evolving in the years after.

I also wonder what they're using as electromagnets to drive these railguns. If they have a heat problem, it's possible they're using conventional copper for coils? Building a railgun with SC drive coils could make it even more powerful (and it could run on the same cryo system you would need for the on-board Polywell).

If they're already using SC coils, they may have a quenching issue that's causing the heat buildup. If not, there's plenty of opportunity for more powerful weapons or higher rates of fire.
Because we can.

Aero
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Location: 92111

Postby Aero » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:09 am

hanelyp wrote:Peace through superior firepower. No one in their right mind picks a fight they'll lose. And if someone not in their right mind picks a fight, best to have the means to put them in their place quickly.

Death before dishonor.
Aero

mdeminico
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:26 pm

Postby mdeminico » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:20 am

happyjack27 wrote:don't know much about carter, but obama has shown himself to be pretty good at that stuff. i hope you're not holding him responsible for the craziness of leaders of other countries. that would just be irrational.


Happyjack, you've made me laugh twice today. The first time I wrote about it in my reply (in another thread), then went back and changed it because I thought I was being mean. This time though, sorry, it's sticking.

HA!

Ok there. Honestly, you believe Obama has done a good job with diplomacy? Just in recent events North Korea has SUNK a South Korean ship, and lobbed artillery shells at a South Korean city. Why? Because they know the man is no JFK, he doesn't have the balls to stand up to our enemies when threatened.

It reminds me of Adolf Hitler in the 1930's. Here, let me just re-take the demilitarized zone on the border, they won't do anything. Here, let me take Austria. Let me take part of Czechoslovakia. Oh, I'll take the rest of it. "What's that Neville? You want me to sign a paper saying I won't take any more countries? SURE!"

I think Obama is better compared to Neville Chamberlain than even Jimmy Carter. Though Carter's right up there...

Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:32 am


Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:11 am

Peace through superior firepower. No one in their right mind picks a fight they'll lose. And if someone not in their right mind picks a fight, best to have the means to put them in their place quickly.


Newsflash, the US has already the capability to turn half of the landmass into a radioactive wasteland. So really, a couple more weaponsystems are not going to make a difference in regards to being deterrents...

Just in recent events North Korea has SUNK a South Korean ship, and lobbed artillery shells at a South Korean city. Why? Because they know the man is no JFK, he doesn't have the balls to stand up to our enemies when threatened.


These are not isolated events. Provocations like that have happened in the past. So dont put to much weight on that. The truth is that with actions like that NK is actually hurting itself. China is slowly getting annoyed with them too and sitting this one out and instead putting pressure on China through economic back channels might be the better choice.
China does not want a war at its doorstep. Ít would severely hinder their economic growth and tensions with the US will also hurt China economically. So if NK keeps acting like that, China will turn its back on NK and thus put pressure on the regime there as well. It is not like they still have any ideological ties left anyway.
The situation in todays global economy is a lot more complex. It is not good against bad (never was anyway), or ideology against ideology anymore, but economic interest versus economic interest. And China and the US both are interested in stability in the region out of (though different) economic interest.

It reminds me of Adolf Hitler in the 1930's.

Oh please, there we go again!

ladajo
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Location: North East Coast

Postby ladajo » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:39 pm

Stoney3K wrote:It seems the Navy is pushing some radical new techs on their ships.

Not a bad thing, if you look at what's being developed, the new generation of warships is going to be completely electrified. Powered from a Polywell, free electron lasers for missile defense and close range capabilities, and railguns for long range assault.

Now if they just found something new for those torpedoes, we're in a whole new generation of warfare. Don't forget that the most ground-breaking techs have historically been made during wartimes, evolving in the years after.

I also wonder what they're using as electromagnets to drive these railguns. If they have a heat problem, it's possible they're using conventional copper for coils? Building a railgun with SC drive coils could make it even more powerful (and it could run on the same cryo system you would need for the on-board Polywell).

If they're already using SC coils, they may have a quenching issue that's causing the heat buildup. If not, there's plenty of opportunity for more powerful weapons or higher rates of fire.


Railguns use rails and an armature, not coils. You are thinking Guass-gun I believe.

Torpedo defense and offense is being developed. The navy is working active kinetic defense methods to complement the traditional 'passive' and non-kinetic methods.
One of the fun projects that is being worked right now are the supercavitators. If you remember the Iranians got all excited about the rocket propelled torpedoes they got frmo the russians, 200kts or so. What they did not talk about so much is that is is unguided. Now guiding a supercavitator would be very cool wouldn't it?

hanelyp
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Postby hanelyp » Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:34 pm

Skipjack, part of effective deterrence is the enemy believing you're willing to use what you have. The world knows that the US is reluctant to inflict mass collateral damage as is unavoidable with a nuke. Being able to project extreme force with precision is more consistent with removing a threat with minimal side damage, and more believable threat wielded by a civilized nation.

Skipjack
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Postby Skipjack » Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:10 pm

The world knows that the US is reluctant to inflict mass collateral damage as is unavoidable with a nuke.

Uhm, I believe that the US has already demonstrated its will to use nuclear weapons in a war, you know being the only country to ever make use of that kind of weapon and all...
So I dont know. I think if the US (as in its own soil) really was in danger of loosing to an enemy, the US would use nuclear weapons. I am very convinced of that.
For anything else, why would you need to deterr people?


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