Go Navy!

[ladajo]

This boat is also the first Russian boat that does not need to slow and run straight to launch torpedoes. Although I would wager that the russian torps and launch systems are still no where near the envelopes we enjoy, and have for oh so long. There was a Russian Acadmey of Sicence aritcle I saw recently that talked about the "new advanced" capability of russian torp launches. So sad.
Something we moved well beyond right after WWII.

Virginia has added conformal in addition to the bow mounted spherical, and some other stuff as well.

We have not even talked towed arrays.

[Skipjack]

There is no-one close in experience and capability for submarines.

For nuclear submarines definitely, but the German 212 is nothing to laugh at.

[ladajo]

Yes, there are decent boats, and the 212 (and some others) are in the bucket.
But they are not the same in capability and experience. There is a step difference.
US Submariners are the most experienced in the world. This has been so for a long time, and will be for a long time.
This experience is beyond training and exercises, it is decades of real world operations built upon a 100 year program with two major wars.
No one operates like we do. Period.
A few have periodically (during war) been peers. But not nearly as successful or with as wide an operational base.

[ladajo]

I would also posit that to close this gap (chasm) would take an enourmously ridiculous effort in time and resources that may not be doable.

[paperburn1]

Be careful, now your starting to sound like a bubble head (submariner)

[ladajo]

Been there, done that. Got a T-shirt.

Covered a lot of ground & water over 3 decades.

[hanelyp]

The algorithms to process input from an array of transducers across your hull into a good sonar input don't seem all that complicated to me, if you have a powerful enough computer to keep up. The latter could be difficult if you want a real time view at the max resolution of the array.

[ladajo]

Tactical sonar is a tricky thing. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it the same.

It would seem that you have a very limited view of the problem if you think it is just about merging signals from several arrays.
It is what you do with those signals that really matters.

[hanelyp]

I understand that signal analysis, often done by the ear of a good sonar man, can identify a target and what it's doing by the sound it makes. Of course having a good directional system to isolate one audio source from another helps. Get enough resolution and you can have an acoustic daylight system, allowing you to see objects by reflected ambient sound.

[ladajo]

often done by the ear of a good sonar man

Very Hollywood. Not saying you don't listen, just that that is not the primary means.

Signal processing and isolation is what makes Sonar suites so expensive outside of the hydrophone arrays.

It really is not as simple as sticking a microphone in the water and having a listen anyone. That went away a really long time ago.

[Skipjack]

Yes, there are decent boats, and the 212 (and some others) are in the bucket.
But they are not the same in capability and experience. There is a step difference.
US Submariners are the most experienced in the world. This has been so for a long time, and will be for a long time.
This experience is beyond training and exercises, it is decades of real world operations built upon a 100 year program with two major wars.
No one operates like we do. Period.
A few have periodically (during war) been peers. But not nearly as successful or with as wide an operational base.

Uhhhm, so you are saying that German submarines did not kick ass during two world wars? I also remember a certain exercise, where U 24, a German 206 (not even the 212) surfaced in the middle of a US carrier group for a nasty surprise for the sonar people there
Then there was another 206 that is said to have circled a Los Angeles class sub several times without the LA noticing it.
Either way, I fully admit that the US submarines are the best overall, but I would rather be on a 212 than even the newest Russian submarine, if I had to go against the US navy

[ladajo]

Then there was another 206 that is said to have circled a Los Angeles class sub several times without the LA noticing it.

This I find hard to believe. If it did happen it must have been beyond extreme circumstantial. Circling another boat is hard even when the other boat is a total dumbass.

I am not so sure it happened, and I would love to see a reference.

In any event, beyond that, yes, I would take a western diesel over any russian boat in every situation if I was to face a US boat.
That said, I would not have high hopes of surviving. At best, I would go for a mutual kill.

[Skipjack]

Then there was another 206 that is said to have circled a Los Angeles class sub several times without the LA noticing it.

This I find hard to believe. If it did happen it must have been beyond extreme circumstantial. Circling another boat is hard even when the other boat is a total dumbass.

I am not so sure it happened, and I would love to see a reference.

In any event, beyond that, yes, I would take a western diesel over any russian boat in every situation if I was to face a US boat.
That said, I would not have high hopes of surviving. At best, I would go for a mutual kill.

My assumption is that "circling" was translated from "drum herum gefahren" (or something like that) which means essentially "they went past it but had to make a small bend to get around it in order to avoid collision". There are several references that come up when you google the story.
Either way, I would be careful to dismiss German submarines. They were way ahead of their time in WW2 and all German post war designs have had excellent properties, including being completely non magnetic and having very low heat signatures and being very quiet. They are definitely more quiet than the 688, not sure about the Virginia, but I would not be surprised if the 212 was more quiet than the 774 (I assume that the reactor is still emitting some noise that cant be completely removed).
I think compared to the Virginia, the 212 falls behind in range and endurance (for obvious reasons), speed and armament (it is a much smaller boat). Diving depth should be equal. HDW claims 400 meters for the 212 and Wikipedia claims 240 for the Virginia (I think that is way too low and probably only the "official" number). The 212 also has a much smaller crew due to a high level of automation (28) which is also a necessity because it is so small.
The German boats can operate in shallow waters too. The 206 and 212 can go as shallow as 17 meters while submerged (and allegedly did 16 meters at least once).
Found a first hand account of an exercise involving U32 and the USS Norfolk (688 class). You will have to use google to translate it. According to this account, the U32 outmatched the Norfolk every time.
http://www.marine.de/portal/a/marine/!u ... 4fAFVzyPWA!!/

[Skipjack]

I will translate this part, because it is pretty cool:

[...]„U 32“ beginnt die Übung unter Ubootbedrohung der „Norfolk“. Gleichzeitig sind mehrere Flieger in der Luft, die nach uns suchen. Jetzt heißt es, auf leisen Sohlen heranschleichen. Die „Norfolk“ sucht das Gebiet ab. Dabei passiert sie uns in einer Entfernung von nur 1.500 m. [...]

[...]Gibt es Indizien, dass die „Norfolk“ uns entdeckt haben könnte? Nein - die „Norfolk“ fährt unbeirrt weiter ihren Kurs. Fünf, sechs Mal passiert uns die „Norfolk“ in den nächsten Stunden.[...]

[...]U 32 starts its exercise under "Uboot" threat by the Norfolk. At the same time there are multiple planes in the air, that are searching for us. Now this means sneak up on "silent feet". The Norfolk is searching the area. During that, she passes us at a distance of 1,500m[...]
[...] Is there an indication that the Norfolk has discovered us? No- the Norfolk keeps holding its course indisturbed. The Norfolk passes us 6 times during the next hours[...]

As a funny side note, the sailor there perfectly fits the cliché of the German submariner, the "Mampf" (food), gets a lot of attention in the diary (good food is important for morale and the "Smut"(cook) is the most important man on board)

[ladajo]

Are you translating that as 1500 meters or 1.5 meters?

You should also know that Christian Moritz is a good friend of mine.