High Speed Rail

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zapkitty
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Post by zapkitty »

pro bono promo, so please pardon the spam :)

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zapkitty
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Post by zapkitty »

As for hovertrains... what about the noise?

People ain't gonna like living near a train track where the trains literally can't turn their horns off.

Assuming the noise issue is resolved then the best option would be one that uses existing track systems... which by inference pretty much solves the guidance and braking problems... in fact if the train is running above the existing rails then it will be able to brake better than any wheeled locomotive ever could... simple electromagnets for fine control and normal slowing down... and a pair of full-length textured steel skids under each car that come down on the rails in an emergency stop with vastly more traction than braking steel wheels...

DeltaV
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Re: High Speed Rail

Post by DeltaV »

Ugh. NAFTA, 1963 version.
Under the Three Nation Compact, the thruways now wove a net across the entire North American continent.
One reason we don't have flying cars (vs. rolling or hovering) is that they are harder to corral. There are other reasons, of course.

WizWom
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Post by WizWom »

A hovertrain could use partial offset, and still maintain enough contact with the rails to maintain control. by reducing the load on the wheels, the ride would be smoother and the maximum speed much faster.

And a skirted hovercraft is not terribly noisy. You don't WANT the air cushion to be blowing all over the place.

The air pressure to significantly reduce the load on an 70 ton passenger rail car is only an overpressure of about 1 ATM.
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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Look at the Inductrac again. Yes the aluminum is in strips. Stacked next to each other continuous for the length of track.

http://www.askmar.com/Inductrack/2000-4 ... tation.pdf

http://gcep.stanford.edu/pdfs/ChEHeXOTn ... _trans.pdf

Either a litz-cable “ladder track”or slotted, laminated, sheet conductors with fiber composite reinforcement could be used to construct the cantilevered track.
That is not going to be cheap even if costs approach material costs.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

MSimon wrote:
http://gcep.stanford.edu/pdfs/ChEHeXOTn ... _trans.pdf

Either a litz-cable “ladder track”or slotted, laminated, sheet conductors with fiber composite reinforcement could be used to construct the cantilevered track.
That is not going to be cheap even if costs approach material costs.
Nope. Not "cheap" but for the capability, cheaper than others I've seen.

Stoney3K
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Post by Stoney3K »

MSimon wrote:Think of the air blast blowing the ballast from the track. I don't think that will work. Plus I think you will need some kind of half tube (i.e. side rails) to keep the train unequivocally on the track.
The amount of surface load (and thus ballast required) is a lot less than with wheeled track. Keep in mind that on hovertrains, the load of the train's weight is distributed equally across the track's surface, not concentrated on specific points along a narrow track.

In theory, a hovertrain could run happily on an asphalt freeway. The only problem you're going to have in that case is guidance, e.g. keeping the train on the track.
Please look up Inductrack. It will change your mind about that statement. Inductrak is just about the cheapest track around.
Does the per-mile cost also take into account the amount of support structures required for Inductrack? Is the load distribution for Inductrack more beneficial when you compare it to 'regular' train track?

Furthermore, mag-lev systems still have the drawback of requiring powerful magnetic fields, which makes either the track or the vehicles expensive.
I foresee a disaster with the air-cusion rail system. A heavy snow blankets the track and the vehicle on its air-cushion climbs up the snowpack and out of the track. Whoppee! What fun, we're flying...splat!
That depends on the size of the air cushion you're using and whether or not you've got some way of vertical guidance. If the cushion is only a few mm thick, the air pressure coming from the train at the front will probably clear the track of any debris which would cause derailment or other accidents.

Furthermore, you'd expect such a system to have a monitoring system that keeps track of the amount of clearance between the train and the track, and adjust the amount of hover accordingly.

If, for some reason, the train would 'run onto' some piece of debris which threatens it with vertical derailment, the distance monitoring system would pick up the train is rising, and drop hover pressure until the normal situation is restored. It would happily run over any debris that is smaller than the expected gap, and if it encounters any bigger stuff, worst-case, it would just grind to a halt.

In extreme situations (like an imminent derailment) such a system would deploy some kind of emergency procedure which would stop the train safely.
WizWom wrote:A hovertrain could use partial offset, and still maintain enough contact with the rails to maintain control. by reducing the load on the wheels, the ride would be smoother and the maximum speed much faster.
You're going to need a way to supply power to the train anyway, so some mode of contact would be useful. However, any 'hard' contact points would induce friction, wear and heat where you don't need it.

You could also think of a modified LIM setup which would also transfer part of the power to the train's on-board systems. OTOH, that would require expensive coils along the length of the track, as opposed to a dragging contact or pantograph making contact with an electrified power line.
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KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Stoney3K wrote:
Please look up Inductrack. It will change your mind about that statement. Inductrak is just about the cheapest track around.
Furthermore, mag-lev systems still have the drawback of requiring powerful magnetic fields, which makes either the track or the vehicles expensive.
Not so powerful. The inductrack uses a Halbach Array with permanent magnets and a static track. Also, the track is not anywhere near as finicky, tolerance wise. Look it up. It is quite interesting. Nothing like the massively expensive Japanese and German mag-lev systems.

zapkitty
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Post by zapkitty »

Hmmm... use existing track and switching systems... hovercraft efficiencies over steel wheels on rails depend on smooth surfaces... alternating railway ties and gravel ballast ain't exactly the poster child for smooth surfaces... beats barnacles, though... hovering on air cushions over the rails themselves seems to solve all problems mentioned and is within engineering but increases noise for sure... hmmm. ;)

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

The amount of surface load (and thus ballast required) is a lot less than with wheeled track.
I'm not thinking of the load. I'm thinking of blasts of air throwing the gravel outside the trackway.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Stoney3K
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Post by Stoney3K »

MSimon wrote:I'm not thinking of the load. I'm thinking of blasts of air throwing the gravel outside the trackway.
The reason you need gravel ballast is to keep the rails in place as the train runs over them and causes vibration.

A hover train causes a lot less stress on the rails underneath, therefore you don't need gravel to keep the rails in place.

In the transition section from wheels to hover you might need to pay attention to this, however.
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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

A hover train causes a lot less stress on the rails underneath, therefore you don't need gravel to keep the rails in place.
So dual use of the track is out of the question?

In that case why not just build a custom right of way?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

zapkitty
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Post by zapkitty »

MSimon wrote:I'm not thinking of the load. I'm thinking of blasts of air throwing the gravel outside the trackway.
errrrr.... gravel roads are a very standard thoroughfare for hovercraft.

Indeed, when a road is intended primarily for use by hovercraft a gravel road is usually what is built.

Any particular reason a hovertrain would somehow be more dangerous in this regard than a cargo hovercraft?

And by using the existing system what starts between the rails stays between the rails and the output would be exhausted front and back of the cars and over the rails... and the railtops have the advantage of sitting a few inches away from the gravel.

I may be overlooking something, of course, so I'd like a better idea as to why gravel would be an exceptional problem with hovertrains before talking of discarding current rail systems.

Stoney3K
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Post by Stoney3K »

MSimon wrote:
A hover train causes a lot less stress on the rails underneath, therefore you don't need gravel to keep the rails in place.
So dual use of the track is out of the question?
I meant to say that it does NOT cause a lot of stress on the underlying track, as opposed to a (steel-)wheeled train.

If gravel seems to be a lesser problem than MSimon expects it to, dual use of a track looks like no problem to me. You're going to have to figure out some clever way of guidance, though.

A hovertrain will want to connect to existing rail traffic and operate in wheeled mode at stations and in populated areas, if only to minimize noise and air blast risk for bystanders.
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MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

zapkitty wrote:
MSimon wrote:I'm not thinking of the load. I'm thinking of blasts of air throwing the gravel outside the trackway.
errrrr.... gravel roads are a very standard thoroughfare for hovercraft.

Indeed, when a road is intended primarily for use by hovercraft a gravel road is usually what is built.

Any particular reason a hovertrain would somehow be more dangerous in this regard than a cargo hovercraft?

And by using the existing system what starts between the rails stays between the rails and the output would be exhausted front and back of the cars and over the rails... and the railtops have the advantage of sitting a few inches away from the gravel.

I may be overlooking something, of course, so I'd like a better idea as to why gravel would be an exceptional problem with hovertrains before talking of discarding current rail systems.
I defer to your superior knowledge.

Of course for the straightaways loading is no problem. I could see designing a track follower. It is just a question of getting a good enough system frequency response. The problems come with loading in the curves.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

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